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    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,704, Reputation: 171
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    #61

    Sep 14, 2019, 04:23 PM
    Revolution
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,043, Reputation: 10852
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    #62

    Sep 14, 2019, 04:32 PM
    Yes the next election, or the one after in two years.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 43, Reputation: 2
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    #63

    Sep 14, 2019, 04:40 PM
    Paraclete: We've already done one of those and kicked to same bunch out that made your home country a Penal Colony....and, we've had a Civil War, too, and the right side won that civil war, and if the right side hadn't have won it, we wouldn't be the United States Of America that we are.....we aren't about to have a redo of either The Revolutionary War or The Civil War....you can forget abut that.....No, the U.S. will opt-out of either one of these and keep building on what makes us great and makes us the envy of the world....And, if times are such that we don't like who is running the show here right now, there is an election coming up and we will let the people of the U.S. decide AT THE BALLOT BOX EXACTLY WHO they do want in Office, whatever the Office/s will be.....Don't let a bunch of idiots or goons running around our streets make you think that the U.S. is out of control here at home, the Engine For Democracy is turned on and running on all cylinders. We have a system in place for almost 250 years now that gives us a blueprint of how to operate these United States and it works pretty darned good...and we aren't changing anything. And, believe me, the people of the U.S. might do some fighting amongst ourselves but its kids play compared to the fighting that any outsiders will find if they try to interfere with how we run things here at home.....they best leave us alone.....In the end, Americans stick together.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,043, Reputation: 10852
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    #64

    Sep 14, 2019, 06:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by vacuum7 View Post
    paraclete: We've already done one of those and kicked to same bunch out that made your home country a penal colony....and, we've had a civil war, too, and the right side won that civil war, and if the right side hadn't have won it, we wouldn't be the united states of america that we are.....we aren't about to have a redo of either the revolutionary war or the civil war....you can forget abut that.....no, the u.s. Will opt-out of either one of these and keep building on what makes us great and makes us the envy of the world....and, if times are such that we don't like who is running the show here right now, there is an election coming up and we will let the people of the u.s. Decide at the ballot box exactly who they do want in office, whatever the office/s will be.....don't let a bunch of idiots or goons running around our streets make you think that the u.s. Is out of control here at home, the engine for democracy is turned on and running on all cylinders. We have a system in place for almost 250 years now that gives us a blueprint of how to operate these united states and it works pretty darned good...and we aren't changing anything. And, believe me, the people of the u.s. Might do some fighting amongst ourselves but its kids play compared to the fighting that any outsiders will find if they try to interfere with how we run things here at home.....they best leave us alone.....in the end, americans stick together.
    extremely well said!
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,704, Reputation: 171
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    #65

    Sep 14, 2019, 06:25 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Paraclete: We've already done one of those and kicked to same bunch out that made your home country a Penal Colony....and, we've had a Civil War, too, and the right side won that civil war, and if the right side hadn't have won it, we wouldn't be the United States Of America that we are.....we aren't about to have a redo of either The Revolutionary War or The Civil War....you can forget abut that.....No, the U.S. will opt-out of either one of these and keep building on what makes us great and makes us the envy of the world....And, if times are such that we don't like who is running the show here right now, there is an election coming up and we will let the people of the U.S. decide AT THE BALLOT BOX EXACTLY WHO they do want in Office, whatever the Office/s will be.....Don't let a bunch of idiots or goons running around our streets make you think that the U.S. is out of control here at home, the Engine For Democracy is turned on and running on all cylinders. We have a system in place for almost 250 years now that gives us a blueprint of how to operate these United States and it works pretty darned good...and we aren't changing anything. And, believe me, the people of the U.S. might do some fighting amongst ourselves but its kids play compared to the fighting that any outsiders will find if they try to interfere with how we run things here at home.....they best leave us alone.....In the end, Americans stick together.
    What is a great shame is you didn't learn from any of it. The fact is you didn't need a revolution to become a great nation, nor did you need a civil war to tear your country apart. You cannot say you stick together because you remain divided. I have no doubt there are pockets where life is good, good for the privileged, but what does your ballot box do? every two years it creates a situation where the government is in stalemate and it takes a crisis for you to agree on anything.

    You americans like to talk about our roots as a penal colony but the start of your nation is hardly much different, people driven from their homes to a far shore where they barely survived
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 43, Reputation: 2
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    #66

    Sep 14, 2019, 10:03 PM
    Paraclete: No, we needed a revolution to gain independence and we had a civil war because the nation WAS tearing itself apart with state trying to secede from the Union...that wasn't going to be allowed. The U.S. became great by how we grew as a nation out of those conflicts.

    Don't take what I said as an affront to Australia, that certainly wasn't the intent, at all....Australia has done pretty well for itself, by all indications, too.....and Australia and the U.S. have a lot in common and it isn't just the commonality of the language. And guess what: A lot of countries think we're both uncultured heathens and probably always will....you can't please everybody.

    The U.S. is still a society in continual development...and it will be that way going forward, as far into the future as we can see......and the truth be know, that is what was intended by the Founding Fathers from the start of it all: Continual honing, continual sharpening, trying to make it better and better as we go. Granted, we have a ways to go even yet but we won't stop....and they'll be plenty of injustices discovered and corrected along the way.

    The ballot box is the best way for free citizens to address grievances with those who are in government elected offices....this, too, was by design! Yes, we have a lot of hoopla every couple of years, a lot of shouting and screaming and finger pointing and dire predictions of doom and gloom but once those elections are over we tend to settle down and keep moving forward TOGETHER!
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,704, Reputation: 171
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    #67

    Sep 15, 2019, 06:44 AM
    A lot of countries think we're both uncultured heathens and probably always will....
    You really do only speak for yourself and about yourself, what anyoneelse thinks is a mystery to you. You think you have something in common with us. What might that be, I wonder?
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 43, Reputation: 2
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    #68

    Sep 15, 2019, 08:43 AM
    Paraclete: What we have in common? Hhmmm? Not too hard to see the similarities: 1) language, 2) same parent nation, 3) conflicts with same parent nation, 4) looked down on as by same parent nation, 5) allies in 2 World Wars and 2 police action conflicts, 6) trading partners, 7) problems with immigration, 8) problems with terrorists....and there are others....But, man, you guys are way ahead of us on immigration: You just said that if you land here you CAN NOT STAY, YOU WILL BE RETURNED TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM! Trump could learn from you.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,043, Reputation: 10852
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    #69

    Sep 15, 2019, 09:12 AM
    You had me in your corner with your analysis, but having brown people, kids and women mostly, but men too, in cages or jail if you prefer, while white Euros have never been treated like or worse than zoo animals, is but a lesson in blatant racism.

    Maybe Australia can get away with it, but a nation of immigrants should never be involved with that kind of behavior. Another point you left out is the EUROS conquering an occupied land, a history we both share though they skipped the import of blacks in chains to build a country.

    They owe no back pay to generations of free labor.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 43, Reputation: 2
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    #70

    Sep 15, 2019, 11:41 AM
    Talaniman: I was using IRONY.....or at least trying to use it.....I guess I screwed that up...I ain't very good at it, obviously! I didn't mean that WE should do it. literally! We don't need to do that.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,704, Reputation: 171
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    #71

    Sep 15, 2019, 02:32 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    You had me in your corner with your analysis, but having brown people, kids and women mostly, but men too, in cages or jail if you prefer, while white Euros have never been treated like or worse than zoo animals, is but a lesson in blatant racism.

    Maybe Australia can get away with it, but a nation of immigrants should never be involved with that kind of behavior. Another point you left out is the EUROS conquering an occupied land, a history we both share though they skipped the import of blacks in chains to build a country.

    They owe no back pay to generations of free labor.
    We got some free labour we just sent them back where they came from, a mistake on your part to keep them, not on ours. As to occupied land, yes there were people here, a bit thin on the ground, but it is acknowledged a little difficult to know what part was occupied, no signs, no fences, etc.


    Yes Tal is right we have had to pay for what we got, to carve a nation out of a wilderness, this we do have in common with you but there the similarity ends
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 43, Reputation: 2
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    #72

    Sep 15, 2019, 08:21 PM
    Paraclete: You really don't believe that having carved a nation out of wilderness is all the U.S. and Australia have in common, do you? Mother tongue is a huge similarity.....as is having the same mother! Not to mention: Australia is a bit of a "melting pot" as is the U.S. There are more commonalities than there are differences!
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,704, Reputation: 171
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    #73

    Sep 16, 2019, 05:15 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Paraclete: You really don't believe that having carved a nation out of wilderness is all the U.S. and Australia have in common, do you? Mother tongue is a huge similarity.....as is having the same mother! Not to mention: Australia is a bit of a "melting pot" as is the U.S. There are more commonalities than there are differences!
    Vac, t'is sad that the heavy foot of the British walked both lands, however, there are many Irish here and we borrow some of our thinking from them, while you filled yourself from Europe's displaced we were not so quick to follow. Your elite doesn't have the same compositions as ours, so those commonalities may not be what you think. You play two peculiar games, the understanding of which is beyond us. Our melting pot has some notable differences, we are Australians, we make no distinction regarding where we have come from and any man who does is regarded as fool.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 43, Reputation: 2
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    #74

    Sep 16, 2019, 05:55 PM
    Paraclete: Now you say the thing that I think: If the U.S. has ever made a big mistake, it is how we continue to discern differences amongst people....a practice that should have gone out of favor long ago. How are we supposed to have "unity" when we continue to make sure we are so succinct about what we are in terms of race or otherwise ethnicity? It has always been a bone spur to me because this "race identity" serves no purpose other than continuing down a road which doesn't have a good ending. Yes, must agree with you: Australia has, as has Brazil, done a much better job at stitching this up than we have.....I believe it has to come to and end in the U.S. if we are going to ever move the ball forward.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,043, Reputation: 10852
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    #75

    Sep 16, 2019, 06:55 PM
    I disagree with you both, since obviously racism, hidden, institutionalized or politicized is an effective tool for those in power to keep power and what better weapon than one that divides the groups through fear and hatred instead of celebrating the similarities despite the differences.

    More and more those that are dominated by the fear and hate are simply growing outnumbered, so safe for me to say that stupid stuff will slowly come to an end and the haters will have little choice but shut the freak up! Hope I see it in my lifetime. Celebrate the differences, why not?
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 43, Reputation: 2
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    #76

    Sep 17, 2019, 02:04 AM
    Talaniman: That's kind of what we are saying, the difference that we are talking about between Australia and the U.S. is that in the U.S., WE LEAD EVERYTHING WITH THE IDENTIFICATION OF RACE, most of the time before anything else, on government documents, civic documentation, etc., and Australia does not....to the Aussies, everyone is an Aussie FIRST, they are free to maintain their own identities and aren't persecuted for it, but race doesn't come into the conversation. I just think that the way we do it divides people into groups...not good!
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,704, Reputation: 171
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    #77

    Sep 17, 2019, 05:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Talaniman: That's kind of what we are saying, the difference that we are talking about between Australia and the U.S. is that in the U.S., WE LEAD EVERYTHING WITH THE IDENTIFICATION OF RACE, most of the time before anything else, on government documents, civic documentation, etc., and Australia does not....to the Aussies, everyone is an Aussie FIRST, they are free to maintain their own identities and aren't persecuted for it, but race doesn't come into the conversation. I just think that the way we do it divides people into groups...not good!
    Thanks Vac, you know I buy my Fish and Chips from a Thai who spends his winters in Thailand, I often visit a Chinese restaurant, the owners have australian names, there are Irish pubs in this town and noone gives a fig where you come from, only that you want to live here and be part of the community. Having said that, you come here legally or you don't come at all. Now I want to know what that braggart who leads you is going to do about the challenge that has been placed before him. I think he will whimper like the pu$$y he is
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,043, Reputation: 10852
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    #78

    Sep 17, 2019, 01:41 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Talaniman: That's kind of what we are saying, the difference that we are talking about between Australia and the U.S. is that in the U.S., WE LEAD EVERYTHING WITH THE IDENTIFICATION OF RACE, most of the time before anything else, on government documents, civic documentation, etc., and Australia does not....to the Aussies, everyone is an Aussie FIRST, they are free to maintain their own identities and aren't persecuted for it, but race doesn't come into the conversation. I just think that the way we do it divides people into groups...not good!
    Ethnic identity, or acknowledgement there of is not a bad thing unless it becomes used that way. No doubt people have their prejudices and bigotries but it does take a willful person to make it a weapon, and that's exactly what we have. People who use the cultural/racial differences a divide for their own purpose.

    Not so easy to do in some countries, like Australia where the Euro culture is extremely dominant. Much easier here where the minorities are becoming majorities. Let's face it, a segment of the Euro descendants here ain't giving that heritage up without a fight.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 43, Reputation: 2
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    #79

    Sep 17, 2019, 05:41 PM
    Paraclete: I like the Australian style when it comes to how they handle people: how they assimilate them and how they handle raw immigration.....I like the legality of how you gentlemen do it: I believe we need to stick by our laws, otherwise, why have the laws in the first place.

    I guess you are referring to The POTUS, President Trump....but what challenge are you referring to because he is confronting many right now. I don't think he is the greatest POTUS of all time but he certainly is not the worst, either. You call him a P@#%& but I don't think that applies to him....he is confrontational and up front about things facing the nation, possibly more so than any POTUS ever. He has so much $$$ that situations and fear of losing never enter his thoughts. Ahhh: the freedom of clear thoughts that only $$$s can bring. Money is, truly, the root of all evil but you must have it to survive.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,704, Reputation: 171
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    #80

    Sep 17, 2019, 05:50 PM
    I refer to the challenge of Iran, which is a manifestation of Islam, just as Saudi Arabia is a manifestation of Islam and the great challenge is to contain these forces which are like matter and anti-matter. Other issues are largely of his making. Money doesn't bring clarity of thought, it brings fear, fear of loss

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