[Athos]

G

Go buy yourself another airplane, dude. It's cool - to hell with those sick and hungry kids.

[jlisenbe]

It is OK for a man to marry a man.

[Wondergirl]

It is OK for a man to marry a man.

He didn't say anything about that one way or the other.

[jlisenbe]

"Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." Matthew 19:4-6 (ESV)

Seem pretty plain. Besides, the topic is "Things Jesus Never Said." It is not, "Things Jesus Said Nothing About."

[Wondergirl]

"Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." Matthew 19:4-6 (ESV)

Seem pretty plain. Besides, the topic is "Things Jesus Never Said." It is not, "Things Jesus Said Nothing About."

How many LGBTQ people were there in Israel back in those days? To cite the Creation story in Genesis 1, God made EVERYTHING perfect, including one man and one woman to be as one flesh. That was the standard. BUT, by the 3rd chapter, EVERYTHING in the universe changed with The Fall. There is no longer one perfect way; the universe was opened up to countless possibilities.

You never stay on topic. Why should I?

[jlisenbe]

You know, you can believe what Jesus said (and there were homosexuals then since Paul makes reference to them) or you can believe liberal orthodoxy, but you cannot believe both. A person can read the Bible from beginning to end and find no warrant for gay marriage or same sex relationships. I'm sure there are people out there who most sincerely love a 14 year old and would love to marry that child, but we don't allow that. Desire itself does not justify actions.

You said that Jesus was quiet on the subject. I pointed out that He was not. You then change the subject.

EVERYTHING in the universe changed with The Fall. There is no longer one perfect way; the universe was opened up to countless possibilities.

Yes. Murder, for instance, was opened up. Rape began to occur after that as well, but we don't sanction those things. That's a really remarkable argument. "Adam sinned, mankind fell, and perfection was thus greatly expanded." What??? That's completely illogical. I never cease to be amazed at the logical gymnastics you go through to try and make your Christian faith jive with your liberal beliefs. My prayer for you is that you will have a genuine revelation of Jesus in all His power and glory and of mankind in our sin and gross IMperfection.

It is also, incidentally, what I am praying for myself.

[Wondergirl]

No, I didn't change the subject. And no, Paul doesn't make reference to them. You need a better concordance. Actually, Paul was probably gay.

There are age-limit laws regarding marrying underage children. The Mormons and other groups haven't/don't necessarily followed those laws, but we don't care about them, do we....

[jlisenbe]

No, Paul doesn't make reference to them. You need a better concordance. Actually, Paul was probably gay.

You must read the most strange Bible on the planet.

The word Paul used for "homosexual" was a combination of two greek words. One meant "man" and the other meant "bed". They are the words used in the Greek translation of Leviticus to forbid men having sex with other men. The meaning is very plain and is used twice.

In the meantime, we wait in vain for any scriptural reference to validate gay marriage. We also wait in vain for any evidence that Paul was gay, and we certainly wait in vain for any place where "gay Paul" validated or even mentioned his gay lifestyle, or where this gay Paul gave instructions to same sex couples on how to live in the same way he gave to married couples.

You must decide. It is actually very sad to see you go through this. It seems to me you wish to hold the world with one hand and Christ with the other. Can you not see that a belief that something is true does not establish it as being so?

[talaniman]

Can you not see that a belief that something is true does not establish it as being so?

So your belief in the bible does not establish the bible being true?

[Athos]

Can you not see that a belief that something is true does not establish it as being so?

Do you mean your own belief that unbelievers go to hell where they are eternally punished? That one?

[jlisenbe]

Do you mean your own belief that unbelievers go to hell where they are eternally punished? That one?

You must be referring to the well established, Bible based teaching on that subject. But when you find a text that says that those who have no faith in Christ will still go to heaven, I'm willing to listen.

So your belief in the bible does not establish the bible being true?

I believe the Bible is true for a variety of reasons. But yes, my belief alone does not, in any way, establish the Bible as true. You are exactly correct.

[Athos]

You must be referring to the well established, Bible based teaching on that subject. But when you find a text that says that those who have no faith in Christ will still go to heaven, I'm willing to listen.

That teaching is not only NOT "well established", the proof has been provided to you many, many times but you simply refuse to acknowledge something that goes against your belief.

As far as what Christ said or didn't say, this is is a "well established" trick of yours - change the subject to avoid confronting your own errors.

You are learning well from your mentor, Trump.

[Wondergirl]

The word Paul used for "homosexual" was a combination of two greek words. One meant "man" and the other meant "bed". They are the words used in the Greek translation of Leviticus to forbid men having sex with other men. The meaning is very plain and is used twice.

Paul made up the word. The Leviticus word means "boy abuser" (pedophile).

All the more reason, because he himself was gay.

Oh, and what about lesbians or trans people? Where are the verses about them?

Here's a website to mull over:

https://medium.com/@belover/leviticu...t-37ed659afc97

[jlisenbe]

Paul made up the word. The Leviticus word means "boy abuser" (pedophile).

All the more reason, because he himself was gay.

Oh, and what about lesbians or trans people? Where are the verses about them?

18:22. 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination;

There is no "word" used there. "Male" is the greek word for a man, not a boy. The description there is very plain.

You have made up your mind, and now you try to bend the scripture to support your idea. There is absolutely no evidence Paul was gay, not a single shred. In fact, the evidence points more towards Paul being widowed or possibly abandoned by his wife when he became a Christian.

As for lesbians/trans people, lesbians would logically be covered by the verses pertaining to same sex relations. Trans are people with mental illness.

Well, live in your make believe world where Paul is gay and Jesus supports gay marriage. It is your choice.

That teaching is not only NOT "well established", the proof has been provided to you many, many times but you simply refuse to acknowledge something that goes against your belief.

You have provided no proof on any occasion. We have already discussed this thoroughly in a previous post. I'll let you go back and read that.

[Wondergirl]

18:22. 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination;

There is no "word" used there. "Male" is the greek word for a man, not a boy. The description there is very plain.

You have made up your mind, and now you try to bend the scripture to support your idea. There is absolutely no evidence Paul was gay, not a single shred. In fact, the evidence points more towards Paul being widowed or possibly abandoned by his wife when he became a Christian.

As for lesbians/trans people, lesbians would logically be covered by the verses pertaining to same sex relations. Trans are people with mental illness.

Well, live in your make believe world where Paul is gay and Jesus supports gay marriage. It is your choice.

Best you should talk with someone who knows Hebrew and Greek very well.

[jlisenbe]

Best you should talk with someone who knows Hebrew and Greek very well.

Yeah. Gotcha.

[Wondergirl]

Yeah. Gotcha.

You didn't bother to read the link I posted, didja.

For instance, Looking at the precise Hebrew words in Leviticus 20:13, it is fascinating to note what we actually see and what is not there. What the text prohibits is a sexual relationship between a “man” (ish in Hebrew) and a male (zachar in Hebrew), not between an “ish” and another “ish.”

Perhaps the ish/zachar difference suggests pederasty. In the extensive scholarly literature, there are many theories. Incest?

Yeah, I know. It'll give you a headache.

[jlisenbe]

Perhaps the ish/zachar difference suggests pederasty.

Wow. What an ironclad idea. Perhaps it suggests something? Yep. Now there is no doubt about it.

In the meantime, the truth becomes clear. "Leviticus18:22 and 20:13 forbid a man lying with another man as one would with a woman. Leviticus was originally written in Hebrew, but Paul was a Greek-educated Jew writing to Gentiles in Greek, the common language of the day, and probably was using the Greek translation of the Old Testament available in that day, the Septuagint, or LXX, for his Scripture quotations.

The Greek translation of these Leviticus passages condemns a man (arseno) lying with (koitai) another man (arseno); these words (excuse the pun) lie side-by-side in these passages in Leviticus. Paul joins these two words together into a neologism, a new word (as we do in saying database or software), and thus he condemns in 1Corinthians and 1Timothy what was condemned in Leviticus."

https://www.equip.org/article/is-ars...at-mysterious/

[Athos]

You have provided no proof on any occasion. We have already discussed this thoroughly in a previous post. I'll let you go back and read that.

I have provided proof galore. You can deny all you want, but, to use your own words, that will not change the truth.

[jlisenbe]

I have provided proof galore. You can deny all you want, but, to use your own words, that will not change the truth.

Go back. Read. Think. Comprehend. You'll like it once you get it.