[jlisenbe]

See all of you tomorrow. Have a good night. God bless.

[Athos]

Go back. Read. Think. Comprehend. You'll like it once you get it.

We both know who needs to read and think. Just as we both know who is blinded by a belief that prevents you from realizing and facing the truth. You admitted as much when, no longer able to defend your position, you fell on the lamest of excuses - "the Bible told me so".

Your faith is your own and you are welcome to it, but it is never a substitute for the truth. Amen.

[Wondergirl]

https://www.equip.org/article/is-ars...at-mysterious/

"About CRI" says it all.

[jlisenbe]

Ten Biblical reasons to believe Paul was not gay.

1. The consensus of the Bible is that any sex outside of marriage is sin.
2. The Bible only describes marriage as between a man and a woman.
3. All Biblical references to same gender sex are negative.
4. Paul never makes any references as to how gay couples should treat each other, which would be beyond amazing if he was gay and felt sex between men was OK.
5. Luke, the author of Acts who knew Paul well and spent a lot of time with him, never describes Paul as gay or gives any hint of any kind that he might be gay. Neither do any of the other NT authors.
6. Paul, in 1 Corinthians, describes marriage as the solution to sexual desire. He does not include gay marriage in that description.
7. There is not a single positive reference in either the OT or NT to homosexual activity.
8. Sodom was clearly judged because of the homosexual lifestyles of many of its men. It is hard to imagine Paul participating in that which caused an entire city to be judged.
9. There is not a single godly man in either the OT or NT who is described as gay.
10. Most importantly, Paul never describes himself as gay or gives even the slightest hint that he might be gay.

OK. Now you can list the Biblical reasons to believe Paul was gay.

I could have added that Paul had been a pharisee. Homosexual pharisees??? Good luck with that one.

And I forgot to mention the clear denunciation of homosexual behavior in Romans 1. Hard to imagine how a gay man could have written that.

[talaniman]

I don't know if Paul was gay or not, but I do know how long it takes a gay guy to come out of the closet, and back in ancient times I imagine many were not forthcoming about their sexuality even though it was well know that some liked hairless boys in private if they could afford them. Regardless if he was or not, the writings of ancient man reflect the attitudes of the time with little or no nuance that may be lost in language.

Like a redneck trying to understand rap a few years ago. You listen to rap JL?

[jlisenbe]

The great importance of rap music aside, I'm still waiting for any Biblical evidence of Paul's gay lifestyle.

Besides all that, to say that "I don't know if Paul was gay or not" is on the level of saying "I don't know if Tal is gay or not." Well, there are a lot of things I can say I don't know, but to even raise the issue I should have some evidence to point to that causes me to think it might be true. It's like saying, "I don't know if Tal looks at porn." Why would I even raise the issue to begin with unless I had some reason to think Tal does? Now if I want to make the outrageous claim that Paul was gay, I really need to have some pretty solid evidence considering the mountain of evidence that indicates Paul could not have been living a homosexual lifestyle.

Disclaimer: I don't think Tal is gay or that he looks at porn. Those were illustrations.
I am not a redneck.
I do not care for rap music.

[jlisenbe]

We both know who needs to read and think.

Wonderful. I'm glad you've seen the light!

[talaniman]

Wonderful. I'm glad you've seen the light!

Everybody has seen YOUR light and your flashlight needs batteries.

[jlisenbe]

Everybody has seen YOUR light and your flashlight needs batteries.

I'll take all the extra light and batteries I can get. I need them.

Tal, if someone wants to pretend Paul was gay, then that's fine with me, but you can't present it as a Biblical position. That's my concern. A person can speculate from now to doomsday.

[talaniman]

Everybody on this board speculates so don't take it personally. How do you know a disciple wasn't gay just because he didn't just say so? Now that's speculation too.

[jlisenbe]

How do you know a disciple wasn't gay just because he didn't just say so?

Already answered that in posts 24 and 26.

Why not speculate that he was a martian, or an olympic athlete, or that he liked to wear high heels? We can't say that he never denied any of that. For that matter, you've never denied that you wear high heels and neither have I, so it would be just as stupidly logical to speculate that both of us wear high heels.

But speculate all you want. You just can't say it is a Biblical position because it is not.

[Wondergirl]

Already answered that in posts 24 and 26.

Why not speculate that he was a martian, or an olympic athlete, or that he liked to wear high heels? We can't say that he never denied any of that. For that matter, you've never denied that you wear high heels and neither have I, so it would be just as stupidly logical to speculate that both of us wear high heels.

But speculate all you want. You just can't say it is a Biblical position because it is not.

What do you believe was Paul's thorn in the flesh?

[jlisenbe]

What do you believe was Paul's thorn in the flesh?

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

When I read the passage concerning this thorn in the flesh, I consider 4 things. First of all, whatever the thorn was, God's grace is presented as being sufficient to overcome that which Paul desired to be rid of. Secondly, Paul, having seen that, says that he will boast in what he had asked to be delivered of. There is no record of Paul ever boasting in homosexual desires. Third, in verse 10 he seems to say that it was "insults, hardships, persecutions," etc. that he was referring to, all of which is testified to amply in the book of Acts. And last, he said earlier that it was a "messenger of Satan", so whatever you want to believe it was, it did not come to him from the hand of God.

There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that he was gay. We will both someday be held accountable for what we have said to others concerning the nature and will of God. You should consider this carefully. You will be held accountable if you have told others that being gay is just fine since, after all, Paul was gay, and yet you have no reason at all to believe that, or at least nothing you have presented so far.

[Athos]

We will both someday be held accountable for what we have said to others concerning the nature and will of God. You should consider this carefully. You will be held accountable

What is it with you people that you have to end discussions with a threat? Yeah, yeah, we know - the Bible told me so.

[jlisenbe]

What is it with you people that you have to end discussions with a threat?

By "you people", are you referring to Jesus?

"Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of' Judgement" Matthew 12:36.

It is not a threat from me. It is a warning which we would all do well to heed. And yes, the Bible told me that. I suppose from your comment that you have no regard for the Bible. That's your choice. I get to have mine.

[Wondergirl]

There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that he was gay. We will both someday be held accountable for what we have said to others concerning the nature and will of God. You should consider this carefully. You will be held accountable if you have told others that being gay is just fine since, after all, Paul was gay, and yet you have no reason at all to believe that, or at least nothing you have presented so far.

I asked a simple question in order to find out what you (and others) have decided might have been Paul's thorn. Thank you for your idea of what it was. That was all my question sought. I do not appreciate the judgmental-to-me final paragraph. This is why I dropped off these threads a while ago. Why does your every response to me include scolding and shaming, as reposted above?

It is not a threat from me. It is a warning which we would all do well to heed. And yes, the Bible told me that. I suppose from your comment that you have no regard for the Bible. That's your choice. I get to have mine.

And you did it again! Another threat, more shaming!

[Athos]

By "you people", are you referring to Jesus?

No, I'm referring to you and people like you.

"Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of' Judgement" Matthew 12:36.

More threats.

It is not a threat from me.

Of course it is. God doesn't need to threaten the way you do - like a dockside bully.

And yes, the Bible told me that. I suppose from your comment that you have no regard for the Bible.

On the contrary, I have enormous regard for the Bible. I just don't worship it like an idol like you do.

Discern what is the will of God so you may find what is good, acceptable and perfect.

Do you really think a one-month-old infant that dies spends all of eternity in torture and punishment because of the infant's unbelief? Even worse, do you think God himself acts in such a manner?

Here is where you say, "The Bible told me so".

God gave you a brain to discern his will. Use it.

[jlisenbe]

I do not appreciate the judgmental-to-me final paragraph. This is why I dropped off these threads a while ago. Why does your every response to me include scolding and shaming, as reposted above?

I threatened no one. You stated that Paul was gay. I asked for your support for that statement. You responded with the "thorn in the flesh" scripture. It just seemed that it was a continuation of your "gay Paul" thought. My apologies if I misunderstood your intent.

Asking you to support your statements, however, does not seem to me to be shaming. These are important issues. We should take them seriously and I assume you do and that you are a grown woman fully capable of defending her thoughts. Besides, if my statements are to be regarded as shaming and scolding, then isn't that what you're doing when you refer to me as "judgemental" and accuse me of shaming and scolding?

I was under the impression that this was a serious discussion amongst adults. I'm not sure how else to approach it, but I am certainly open to your suggestions. I regard you as something of an internet friend, as I do Tal. It is never my intention to speak down to you, but I do like to get people to think about what they are saying. If you would prefer me not do that, then I'll stop. But let me point out that you responded to my original post about Jesus not endorsing gay marriage, and it took off from there. Still, you tell me how you want me to approach it and I'll try to be accommodating.

No, I'm referring to you and people like you.

I really don't know how to answer that. I gave you a quote from Jesus that I basically copied in its content in my post. So if you're referring to me, then you are referring to his quote and thus to Him. You'll have to argue with Him about it.

[Athos]

I really don't know how to answer that. I gave you a quote from Jesus that I basically copied in its content in my post. So if you're referring to me, then you are referring to his quote and thus to Him. You'll have to argue with Him about it.

You lack the courage of your convictions by passing off the blame to Jesus. Every time you're cornered, you respond the same way - take it up with Jesus. Anyone reading this sees right through you.

[jlisenbe]

You lack the courage of your convictions by passing off the blame to Jesus. Every time you're cornered, you respond the same way - take it up with Jesus. Anyone reading this sees right through you.

Sometimes I just have to laugh when I read your perpetually angry responses. You wanted to "shame" me for giving a warning about words. When I point out that I got that from Jesus, then you want to get mad about me not having the courage of my convictions. But you, of course, have no quarrel with Jesus Himself. Oh well. It is what it is.

I should know better than to ask this of the angry man, but in what way do you think I was "cornered"? I assure you that I have never felt cornered by you, so I'm curious as to your thoughts on that. Maybe Tal a few times, but not you.