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    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #61

    Jun 21, 2019, 03:07 AM
    We should institute Operation Praying Mantis immediately .
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #62

    Jun 21, 2019, 05:24 AM
    Like you said before, 17 miles distance isn't a lot especially if you retaliate with even more shock, awe, and destruction. Not that I take Iran's version of events as truth, but I doubt they retaliate with boats, planes or soldiers either after an attack. I have no doubt they will retaliate.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #63

    Jun 21, 2019, 06:29 AM
    but I doubt they retaliate with boats, planes or soldiers either after an attack
    They use proxy terrorists . You know that.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #64

    Jun 21, 2019, 07:57 AM
    I know that but does the dufus know? I surely hope so, because that means boots on the ground and not boats, especially if those proxy terrorist terrorize in another country. Shoot first and asking questions later is a great escalation tool not a solution.
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #65

    Jun 21, 2019, 09:10 AM
    I think the current mess could have been avoided if Trump had not broken the agreement with Iran.

    It’s hardly surprising that the Iranians are trying to sound as bellicose as possible, hoping their threats and the terrorist tactics that they have regularly employed for the last 40 years would scare the administration into backing down. Equally unsurprising is that those who backed Obama’s deal, are, like the Iranians, framing the issue as a choice between war and appeasement in the form of a weak agreement that did not accomplish what its defenders claimed for it.

    That has always been a false choice.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #66

    Jun 21, 2019, 09:17 AM
    Shoot first and asking questions later is a great escalation tool not a solution.
    You cast Trump as reckless regarding Iran, and then he counsels restraint and proportionality so you say he's indecisive .
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #67

    Jun 21, 2019, 09:24 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    You cast Trump as reckless regarding Iran, and then he counsels restraint and proportionality so you say he's indecisive .
    He suddenly realized that following up on his impulsive reaction and getting into a war would mess up his reelection in 2020.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #68

    Jun 21, 2019, 09:41 AM
    But I have been hearing the argument on this posting that this whole exercise is a wag the dog effort by him to enhance his 2020 bid So which one is it ?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #69

    Jun 21, 2019, 10:10 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    It’s hardly surprising that the Iranians are trying to sound as bellicose as possible, hoping their threats and the terrorist tactics that they have regularly employed for the last 40 years would scare the administration into backing down. Equally unsurprising is that those who backed Obama’s deal, are, like the Iranians, framing the issue as a choice between war and appeasement in the form of a weak agreement that did not accomplish what its defenders claimed for it.

    That has always been a false choice.
    That's not how I framed it so to be clear an agreement on nukes certainly opens a door for more agreements which is the purpose of diplomacy. Its never been about appeasement or war since both sides get something if not all they want. When the dufus withdrew us from a negotiated 5 country deal he basically erased years of efforts and has to start from scratch which he initiated by locking down the screws to there economy, and adding the siege military tactic like the Iranians will be forced to capitulate to abject surrender under those terms.

    Negotiating from a position of strength? Naw, Iranian proxies would never join such capitulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    But I have been hearing the argument on this posting that this whole exercise is a wag the dog effort by him to enhance his 2020 bid So which one is it ?
    You certainly can't rule that out now can we?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #70

    Jun 21, 2019, 10:14 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    But I have been hearing the argument on this posting that this whole exercise is a wag the dog effort by him to enhance his 2020 bid So which one is it ?
    Someone clued him in that Iran could do tremendous damage to the US in all sorts of ways.
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #71

    Jun 21, 2019, 12:18 PM
    Its never been about appeasement or war since both sides get something if not all they want.
    Desperate for a deal at any price, Obama also reneged on his re-election campaign promise that Iran would be forced to give up its nuclear program and, in exchange for a temporary pause in their activity to build a bomb, ended the sanctions and even agreed to a “sunset clause.” When the pact expires, Iran will be able to get its weapon anyway.

    Iran agreed to negotiate a deal with Obama only when he agreed to recognize the right of Iran to undertake nuclear research and develop nuclear capability. US president Donald Trump is merely re-implementing sanctions previously imposed on Iran.

    That's not how I framed it so to be clear
    Obama and Kerry, claimed the only choices available were either war or their deal.

    What makes a superpwer super is power. If we don't use it, whats left? Iran believes they will destroy us and acts on that conviction every day. We...seek nagoteations.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #72

    Jun 21, 2019, 12:20 PM
    Someone clued him in that Iran could do tremendous damage to the US in all sorts of ways.
    no ,he heard that there could be over 100 people killed in the strike being contemplated and determined that was not proportionate to the loss of a drone . What could Iran do if we decided to go all out on them ? Please .The leadership is hanging on by a thread now because the sanctions are working . That is why they are desperate to do something like blow up tankers and take pot shots at drones. Me ? I want to crater mark the whole coast line . But even I realize that the best course is to do even more tightening of the economic noose.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #73

    Jun 21, 2019, 01:09 PM
    You are almost as good as the dufus at creating spin. I think it was a head fake from the beginning and he had no intention of such an action. Great talking points to show off his compassionate restraints for the news cycle though as everyone except you Tom, and Bolton gives a BIG sigh of relief. It worked on most people I supposed. He showed his control over a contrived situation.

    Sort of like his tomahawk attack in Syria. All show nothing but dust, but shows he is locked and loaded and ready to go. Mission Accomplished for the weekend anyway for the orange butt drama queen.

    You really believe there was no casualty assessment during the early planning stages?
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #74

    Jun 21, 2019, 01:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    You are almost as good as the dufus at creating spin. I think it was a head fake from the beginning and he had no intention of such an action. Great talking points to show off his compassionate restraints for the news cycle though as everyone except you Tom, and Bolton gives a BIG sigh of relief. It worked on most people I supposed. He showed his control over a contrived situation.

    Obviously! He took the whole schtick right out of a West Wing episode. Just look at his expression telling the tale - he acts it out with quotes from his "Generals".

    The timeline is disputed between Trump and the military.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #75

    Jun 21, 2019, 02:00 PM
    All show nothing but dust, but shows he is locked and loaded and ready to go
    Tell that to the 200+ Russian green shirts that got wasted from an American attack in Syria.

    https://taskandpurpose.com/russian-m...a-leaked-audio
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #76

    Jun 21, 2019, 02:34 PM
    When the dufus withdrew us from a negotiated 5 country deal he basically erased years of efforts and has to start from scratch
    Yah, Never mind the 40+ years Obama tried to erase.


    Just at the moment when even tougher sanctions might have tightened the noose on the regime and forced it to abandon its nuclear quest as well as its support for terrorism, Obama reversed course. He chose not only to go for a narrow deal that ignored every issue but the nuclear one. Obama's deal encouraged Iran to become even more aggressive in its use of terror and its quest for regional hegemony.

    the purpose of diplomacy. Its never been about appeasement or war
    Coercive Diplomacy, That is the only Diplomacy that entire region understands/respects.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #77

    Jun 21, 2019, 03:53 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Tell that to the 200+ Russian green shirts that got wasted from an American attack in Syria.

    https://taskandpurpose.com/russian-m...a-leaked-audio
    And your point would be what?

    Quote Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    Yah, Never mind the 40+ years Obama tried to erased.
    I'll bite 40 year history of what?

    Just at the moment when even tougher sanctions might have tightened the noose on the regime and forced it to abandon its nuclear quest as well as its support for terrorism, Obama reversed course. He chose not only to go for a narrow deal that ignored every issue but the nuclear one. Obama's deal encouraged Iran to become even more aggressive in its use of terror and its quest for regional hegemony.
    You mean 5 other signatory countries that went for the deal.

    Coercive Diplomacy, That is the only Diplomacy that entire region understands/respects.
    Don't like Arabs huh?
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #78

    Jun 21, 2019, 04:13 PM
    I'll bite 40 year history of what?
    Sanctions.

    Don't like Arabs huh?
    They don't like each other. I have no problem with Arabs.

    You are nuts if you think the Mussies want to be our Friends. Certainly your not suggesting that trump go back to the Deal "Deal"?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #79

    Jun 21, 2019, 04:45 PM
    40 years of sanctions with no results? Didn't work in Cuba either. Time to change tactics.
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #80

    Jun 21, 2019, 04:55 PM
    Coercive Diplomacy, That is the only Diplomacy that entire region understands/respects.
    What else are they suppose to learn while continuing to look at the barrel of the gun as a communication tool?
    It is like this all over the Middle East. It is very sad, but true.

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