Ask Experts Questions for FREE Help !
Ask
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
    Uber Member
     
    #201

    Aug 20, 2018, 10:08 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Careful, Smoothie. Facts, data, truth... you'll confuse some of the folks in this discussion!
    True...

    You you know what they say about ignorance being bliss. I learned from experience... the media is not to be trusted, or believed implicitly. Here in the USA or anyplace else. I also have no implicit trust for or take the word of anyone who makes a life long career out of politics. I trust people who earn a living from real jobs far more. Welfare class is = to Political Class. Both are leeches sucking life from the productive people in society.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #202

    Aug 20, 2018, 11:32 AM
    the media is not to be trusted, or believed implicitly.
    Really true. Too many of them have their own agenda and it's not digging out the truth.
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
    Uber Member
     
    #203

    Aug 20, 2018, 12:43 PM
    Actual, real, Journalism died decades ago... what exists today is not any different that PRAVDA used to be.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #204

    Aug 20, 2018, 01:36 PM
    Since we aren't talking the severely handicapped people.. that means they are able bodied and fully capable of working. Can't find work where you are, then move to where the work is... I've done it more than once... so can they.
    Absolutely. Welfare actually does a disservices to poor people in teaching them to lose their initiative and just sit, depending on someone else to take care of them.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
    Ultra Member
     
    #205

    Aug 20, 2018, 08:48 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Absolutely. Welfare actually does a disservices to poor people in teaching them to lose their initiative and just sit, depending on someone else to take care of them.
    How ridiculous is that statement? Your attitude suggests you think starving and going without shelter and medical services is a better alternative. The let them eat cake attitude of the rich. The French were right, off with the heads of people like you
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #206

    Aug 21, 2018, 03:11 AM
    Mentally and physically healthy people don't choose to starve and go without shelter. They get off their arse and get a job. Not really complicated. I never have understood the fake compassion of people like you. You want to have the self satisfaction of thinking that you have helped the poor, so long as it's not done with your own money but rather the resources of the taxpayers.

    The French were right, off with the heads of people like you.
    So you side with the French Revolution. I guess nothing else about you needs to be said. It is unfortunate to see someone so filled with contempt that he cannot carry on a civil discussion.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #207

    Aug 21, 2018, 04:22 AM
    Geez JL, you make it sound as though everybody on welfare is a lazy b@stard who just sits around and waits on YOUR paycheck. You and Smoothy got that bad. Most of the people on welfare, are the working poor FAMILIES, children, and old people. How much initiative do you expect from kids and old people? Why would you deny or even sink that low to disparage low income people who need help with the basics? Haven't you even noticed the costs of the basics has gone up over the years, not down, which makes it MORE challenging, not less. I guess this is where you talk about how hard YOU worked to get where YOU'RE at, and they can do it too. Well many will and do, and so do their kids. Have you forgotten the challenges YOU had to overcome to get to YOUR goals?

    So can it not be said that making working poor the lazy b@stards, we can make you UNGRATEFUL b@stards, because now that you have worked hard to make it, you have forgotten where you came from? Unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, and mommy and daddy gave you everything you have now, those poor working class families were YOU back in the day. Or are you doing the same mudslinging and character assassination done to YOU when YOU were working hard to escape your own saga of poverty.

    Personally I admire those from humble beginnings who worked hard and never forgot where they came from and feel no need to bad mouth the ones who come behind them. I worry about the UNGRATEFUL b@stards with bad memories though, who never learned you don't elevate yourself by putting someone else down, or ignoring the blessings you got along t
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #208

    Aug 21, 2018, 04:38 AM
    because now that you have worked hard to make it, you have forgotten where you came from?
    I have forgotten nothing. I worked hard as did my wife. We trusted God to help us. We struggled. Early on, I went fifteen months with no steady work, and we had our first child in the middle of that, but we never came to the place that you celebrate, where we felt we should have the right to force other people to support us. Now we are in a much better place, so we are able to help others, and we do. We don't sink to the place you are at, where you think that just because someone doesn't agree with you it gives you license to call them a bastard. That's sickening and pathetic, and it is so typical of modern day liberals. You cannot hold your own with reason and logic, so you sink to name-calling. Honestly, that's a disappointing response from you. I often don't agree with you, but to see you go this low is surprising.

    I haven't disparaged anyone. I guess that is now your area. I simply say that anyone who is mentally and physically healthy needs to get out and get a job, and get two jobs if need be. If they will work hard and smart, they can become successful. They shouldn't count on the generosity of people like you who are all too willing to try to impress the rest of us with their willingness to spend other people's money to, in their opinion, help the poor.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #209

    Aug 21, 2018, 05:02 AM
    How did God help you? How did you eat? How did you shelter? How did you feed your baby?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #210

    Aug 21, 2018, 05:12 AM
    Listen very carefully, as this might shock you. We Worked!! God provided us with mental and physical health. His word encouraged us. The life of His Son Jesus carried us. So there was nothing available to us that was not available to everyone else. We counted on no one to help us. We compelled no one to help us. I worked two jobs at one point. It was a team effort. That's what we need to encourage people to do. Finish high school. Don't have babies outside of marriage. Work hard at a job. Keep your big mouth shut and work. Learn everything you can. Make your marriage work. These are the important things. Don't compel other people to help you.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #211

    Aug 21, 2018, 05:34 AM
    So you have walked in those shoes of the working poor, no public assistance and such, and paid your bills right? Caught buses and walked if you had to. Paid a hospital to deliver your child and the after care doctor visits. What was the minimum wage back then? We're the same age and we all did the same things back in the day. Best days of my life actually since we were all poor and struggling, and had to put our meager resources together for a deck of cards on Friday night, and potato salad and chick wings for us and OUR kids. My point is we were not struggling in isolation, we struggled together.

    I guess it was a blessing to have that group support, and sorry you did not. No wonder you have a sourpuss attitude, and disparage others easily and often.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #212

    Aug 21, 2018, 05:41 AM
    "sourpuss attitude, and disparage others easily and often."
    Good grief. "You don't agree with me, so you must be a sourpuss and one who disparages others." What an attitude. And you wonder why people might not agree with your logic??? Really?

    We had people who helped us, but it was primarily us and God. I'm so glad that we never entered into your realm, where people just handed us money. Doing without taught us to work harder, and it made us respect and value each other. It's terrible that you deprive others of that. If you think that is not the case, then I question how much you have actually been involved with poor people. I worked at inner city schools many years. Our church was involved with inner city people. There were a lot of great parents we worked with, but the negative effects of welfare were very obvious.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #213

    Aug 21, 2018, 06:54 AM
    Good grief. "You don't agree with me, so you must be a sourpuss and one who disparages others." What an attitude. And you wonder why people might not agree with your logic??? Really?
    Agree or disagree it's all good. You're a sourpuss not because you disagree with my logic, but because of what you post.

    We had people who helped us, but it was primarily us and God.
    Talk about not answering the question...! Who were the people who helped you? HOW did they help you? How did God help you and your family?

    [QUOTE]I'm so glad that we never entered into your realm, where people just handed us money. Doing without taught us to work harder, and it made us respect and value each other. It's terrible that you deprive others of that. If you think that is not the case, then I question how much you have actually been involved with poor people.{/QUOTE]

    I have never been in, or seen where anyone was just handed money. I have seen people wait all day for an interview and get assessed and explained as to what could be done, and the rules they have to adhere to, and what was expected of them if they did get help. It's quite a long and tedious process to sign up for any public assistance program, and follow through to keep that assistance, by showing COMPLIANCE and need, but of course you know that, but intentionally made it sound like a snap done deal, just show up with your hands out. Question all you want, but I know how to guide people through that process to get what they need to stand on there own. There is a whole network of us out here who know and want to help the willing through the challenges of learning how to fish and where the fish are biting.

    I worked at inner city schools many years. Our church was involved with inner city people. There were a lot of great parents we worked with, but the negative effects of welfare were very obvious.
    I have to ask if it's the effects of public assistance programs, or the challenges of the process of those programs. Would appreciate elaboration if you can to those negative effects, as my experience indicates past traumas, or lack of support as being the obvious effects of a larger situation which has nothing to do with getting the right help to those that need it. Often is the case that food and shelter are not enough and more health centered assistance is more needed, maybe short term for some but many fall into the longer term more extensive assistance needed category.

    People in wheel chairs are but a small part of those that are handicapped and mental issues are not always apparent. Deprivation does nothing for those in great need or their spirit. I guess you cannot grasp the concept that some need more help than others and fail to be grateful you are not among them. Not your fault you cannot grasp the full extent of the problem. An unwillingness to acknowledge that fact though is on you as you force your values on those that you don't value.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #214

    Aug 21, 2018, 07:06 AM
    How did God help you and your family?
    OK. Already answered that. Go back and read it.

    Who helped us? My parents, primarily, but it was a small part of the whole. We were grateful for it, but it was 1% (or whatever) of our income. And I'm glad they didn't carry us!!! It made us grow up and learn to take care of ourselves. I'm so glad they did not have your crippling concept of charity.

    It still comes down to this. If you can tell me why you think that some Americans have a right to take the income of other Americans, then we can see if your thinking makes sense. And that is still the bottom line. Phrase it any way you want, it is still some Americans being compelled to give their money to other people, some of whom are not even citizens.

    The negative effects? "I don't need to work since I have welfare." That is rampant, and if you don't think it is, then I know you are not engaged with working with poor people.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #215

    Aug 21, 2018, 07:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    OK. Already answered that. Go back and read it.

    Who helped us? My parents, primarily, but it was a small part of the whole. We were grateful for it, but it was 1% of our income.

    It still comes down to this. If you can tell me why you think that some Americans have a right to take the income of other Americans, then we can see if your thinking makes sense. And that is still the bottom line. Phrase it any way you want, it is still some Americans being compelled to give their money to other people, some of whom are not even citizens.

    The negative effects? "I don't need to work since I have welfare." That is rampant, and if you don't think it is, then I know you are not engaged with working with poor people.
    I have never said that any individual has a right to take another's wages or possession's without your permission but that's not an individual of which you speak and OUR government, duly elected, are the ones taxing us, both your state, local, and federal government making the rules that make public assistance possible. As I pointed out talk to your conservative government officials about why they allow this travesty in your mind to continue since conservatives have the power to change things because they run MOST local and state governments as well as the federal government. You elected them, so why blame liberals when you are the one with the big stick?

    "I don't need to work since I have welfare."

    That's not in the rules of compliance as I laid out before. Maybe you should start with reading your own state requirements for receiving public assistance. Let me help you with the FACTS in your state.

    https://www.needhelppayingbills.com/...ssissippi.html


    People who receive support from this program will also need to participate in an approved work activity, such as job training or an actual job. This needs to occur after they are determined to be "work ready" by their Department of Human Services social worker. Or they need to be in a work activity no longer than 24 months (within the 60 month lifetime maximum), whether or not consecutive, after receiving public assistance, whichever comes first.
    Read the whole thing please as other states have similar rules. The system ain't perfect, but it's what we got. Change it if you don't like it, or move someplace that won't levy taxes for the public good. You live in a conservative state so why are you blaming liberals? You just like to blame liberals for all your imagined ills.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #216

    Aug 21, 2018, 09:19 AM
    I have never said that any individual has a right to take another's wages or possession's without your permission but that's not an individual of which you speak and OUR government, duly elected, are the ones taxing us, both your state, local, and federal government making the rules that make public assistance possible.
    So again, why should the government(conservative, liberal, whatever) have the right to compel any American to take some of their money and give it to another American? Why does that person have a right to any other American's money? Even if it is done through taxation, it amounts to the same thing. Compulsory charity.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
    Jobs & Parenting Expert
     
    #217

    Aug 21, 2018, 10:13 AM
    Even if it is done through taxation, it amounts to the same thing. Compulsory charity.
    What will you do someday if YOU need financial assistance and there's no family help available or "charity pot" for you to dip into?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #218

    Aug 21, 2018, 10:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So again, why should the government(conservative, liberal, whatever) have the right to compel any American to take some of their money and give it to another American? Why does that person have a right to any other American's money? Even if it is done through taxation, it amounts to the same thing. Compulsory charity.
    We the people GAVE them the RIGHT to make laws and levy taxes, and what's done with the money. We the people can also take it away.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #219

    Aug 21, 2018, 11:05 AM
    We the people GAVE them the RIGHT to make laws and levy taxes, and what's done with the money. We the people can also take it away.
    No difference. On what basis do we, the people, have the right to go to a free American and tell him/her that another American has a right to take his income? There have been times I could have been convinced to support some types of welfare. No one likes the idea of poor people with no assistance, but I have been unable to answer (as have you) this nagging, foundational question. What right do I have to impose my views of charity on other people? They are certainly born in religious teaching. There is no rational, moral reason for an atheist to think we should help the down and out. So again, how do we, the people, have the right to force other Americans to engage in charity, saying that other Americans have a legal claim to their income? If you want to win me over, you must answer that question.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
    Ultra Member
     
    #220

    Aug 21, 2018, 02:10 PM
    There is a price for that freedom you seek, but liberty, well as long are you are not incarcerated, celebrate

Not your question? Ask your question View similar questions

 

Question Tools Search this Question
Search this Question:

Advanced Search

Add your answer here.


Check out some similar questions!

A Message To Donald Trump [ 11 Answers ]

Dear President Trump, In this country, we do not hand over American citizens to be interrogated by foreign adversaries. Yours, AMERICA It took this sorry excuse for a president THREE DAYS to figure that out after calling it an "incredible offer". There is a consensus among serious...

Trump Foundation Sued, Trump A Crook - NY Attorney General [ 19 Answers ]

Blatant illegal dealing by the "art of the deal" self-proclaimed "genius". First there was the fraudulent Trump University which Colludin' Donald had to pay $25 million to settle. Now it's the equally fraudulent Trump Foundation that the New York Attorney General is suing. This...

"If Trump Shot Comey", Trump's Lawyer Giuliani's Latest Bizarre Hypothetical [ 24 Answers ]

As the Republican Party rapidly changes America into a Banana Republic, Trump's lawyer sinks into absurdity after absurdity. In an attempt to assure that Trump is above the law and cannot be prosecuted, interviewed, or any way hindered in any way he does not wish to be hindered, the unhinged...

New poll shows Trump supporters live in a DIFFERENT reality than the rest of us.. [ 21 Answers ]

Hello: They BELIEVE that unemployment went UP during Obama - Nahh.. It went WAYYY down. They BELIEVE that the stock market went DOWN during Obama - Nahhh.. It went WAYYY up. They BELIEVE Clinton LOST the popular vote - Nahhh.. She beat him by 2.7 MILLION votes. An even greater...


View more questions Search