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    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #41

    Feb 26, 2018, 10:08 AM
    legal is what the government says is legal until the law is challenged . Constitutional ? Yes . Legal ? Well actually yes it is legal to own a tank; and they do not have to be demilitarized. While the military will sell surplus tanks in a demilitarized condition, there is nothing that prevents a civilian owner from having a fully functional tank ;as long as the civilian possesses the appropriate federal firearms licenses. If the civilian owner does not have the correct licenses, then any the tank has to be rendered incapable of firing.But the civilian can still own it .

    Rocket launchers are trickier . missiles are classified as ammo or as ATF calls them "destructive devices " . .Bazookas without ammo is just a fancy aluminum tube .Grenades are also "destructive devices " .However it is legal to own them so long as they are military grade and not home made . Operable frag grenades require a $200 tax for each one ,and it has to be stored in a safe place. MANPADS are illegal to own.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #42

    Feb 26, 2018, 10:12 AM
    So in other words guns, ammo, weapons, and the such can be licensed and regulated... and taxed?
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #43

    Feb 26, 2018, 10:47 AM
    regulating is part of the 2nd amendment . What I was disputing was the contention that the militia is some government run organization ie. the National Guard . That is not what they meant by regulated militia .

    You haven't seen me object to licensing taxing and other things like back round checks .

    You will never get the people to agree to bans on rifles so why don't you take that off the table and work on solutions that are doable instead of insulting those who don't agree with you as being oppose to "common sense " solutions . The weakness here was that EXISTING regulations about ownership were not enforced .
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #44

    Feb 26, 2018, 02:16 PM
    I will stick with my ban position, agree or not. We can compromise meet in the middle whatever, as under our system of laws that's the process. It would seem an upgrade in technology to facilitate a NATIONAL gun registry for law enforcement on all levels would be a step I could agree on. As well as closing regulatory loopholes such as enjoyed by gun shows, and private citizens in many states. Both would go a long way into more accurate up to date background checks. A longer wait period for new gun sales until those areas are sufficiently tightened up and improved is reasonable it seems. That would be where I start, as well as adding more law enforcement officers on multiple levels and agencies, including tech savvy individuals, and making metal detectors mandatory until some genius buys a 3D for making plastic guns, which they do already. In which case we will all need airport type high resolution X-ray screening at entrance points eventually.

    That sounds more reasonable than the fringe left and right who won't budge at all from their positions, doesn't it?
    cdad's Avatar
    cdad Posts: 12,700, Reputation: 1438
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    #45

    Feb 26, 2018, 03:00 PM
    Tal it doesnt sound reasonable to me because your looking at the wrong end of things from where I see it. Why not first start with hippa. You remember that law that says you cant mention the condition of others to anyone. Well that is a breeding loophole that acts like a huge wound when it comes to releasing medical records for the mentally ill. If the government is unaware of a situation they can not be forced to act on it. Shining a light into that dark world would be a start.

    I dont see any reasonable persons trying to eliminate the background checks that are normal for the place where you live. If you attatch it to all sales and transfers then you arleast have some checks in place to stay on top of things. A national registry is how many governments started befor they closed in on the people. Think about it every citizen must submit should a declaration of marshal law come about. The first thing they would do is show up at your door because your on the list.

    We had things in place for this very situation and it failed us. It is time to have a new stratagy and try some things that might actually work. Thos non lethal means for stopping a person when they are being shot at from all directions can and will stop an attacker in his / her tracks. Also the videos you had shown were all hollow points and not fmj so the damage is more horrific and that is why they are outlawed in battle.
    Oliver2011's Avatar
    Oliver2011 Posts: 2,606, Reputation: 746
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    #46

    Feb 26, 2018, 03:25 PM
    It is my wish that we as a society would be getting better at living together rather than getting worse. Guns or no guns, we are getting worse. Sadly when one of these crimes happens, it fuels others to copycat. But guns or no guns our premise must be to protect our schools, our children, and innocent people that are targeted. It's unsettling to me that I have to teach my kids now to know where the exits are. If my partner and I are at a bar, it's a bar where our backs are not to the door. I watch everyone now just because of the world that we have made. It's sad really. But as for schools, I still don't comprehend the complexity of fixing this problem. I get that we can't fix all soft targets but these are our schools and our kids.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #47

    Feb 26, 2018, 05:25 PM
    Tal it doesn't sound reasonable to me because your looking at the wrong end of things from where I see it. Why not first start with hippa. You remember that law that says you cant mention the condition of others to anyone. Well that is a breeding loophole that acts like a huge wound when it comes to releasing medical records for the mentally ill. If the government is unaware of a situation they can not be forced to act on it. Shining a light into that dark world would be a start.

    How CD, would you go about shedding that light? They struck down the idea years ago that a physician could ask if a patient had a gun, or even report him if a physician deemed him at risk. So tell me your thoughts as to how to get the lights on.

    I don't see any reasonable persons trying to eliminate the background checks that are normal for the place where you live. If you attach it to all sales and transfers then you arleast have some checks in place to stay on top of things. A national registry is how many governments started before they closed in on the people. Think about it every citizen must submit should a declaration of marshal law come about. The first thing they would do is show up at your door because your on the list.

    Well that's a problem. On one hand you are for background checks but on the other you want it kept private, or just in your state. If you're that afraid of your own government going rogue on you then we have a bigger problem than just gun safety. I guess everybody is scared of something but are you more afraid of the government knocking at your door for your guns, or criminals moving from state to state to avoid a true background check. Or could it be that you know nothing of that, being the upstanding citizen you are. Are you suggesting a felon or loon who can't buy a gun in his state ca come to your state with a clean record and buy a gun?

    We had things in place for this very situation and it failed us. It is time to have a new stratagy and try some things that might actually work. Thos non lethal means for stopping a person when they are being shot at from all directions can and will stop an attacker in his / her tracks. Also the videos you had shown were all hollow points and not fmj so the damage is more horrific and that is why they are outlawed in battle.

    All due respect CD, bean bags and rubber bullets are a good idea if a target stands there to get shot, but a moving target is much harder, and add some chaos and confusion and a bunch of frantic people you have a high stress situation, and maybe you don't get close enough for a good shot at a perp spewing lead at 13-15 RPS. Good for some situations but not others. As to the ammo, only 11 states ban the sale, and possession of hollow points and you can get them online and shoot pig heads all you want.

    Yes the system failed, but don't you think better, faster, more efficient communications would bring about a better outcome?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #48

    Feb 26, 2018, 06:18 PM
    Not when your purpose is to rig the system to get results you want . This is how Broward County responded to an initiative by them AG Holder and the emperor .
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/9...744374784.html
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #49

    Feb 26, 2018, 06:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Tal it doesn't sound reasonable to me because your looking at the wrong end of things from where I see it. Why not first start with hippa. You remember that law that says you cant mention the condition of others to anyone. Well that is a breeding loophole that acts like a huge wound when it comes to releasing medical records for the mentally ill. If the government is unaware of a situation they can not be forced to act on it. Shining a light into that dark world would be a start.

    How CD, would you go about shedding that light? They struck down the idea years ago that a physician could ask if a patient had a gun, or even report him if a physician deemed him at risk. So tell me your thoughts as to how to get the lights on.
    Mental health professionals (and I'm guessing medical professionals) are required to report a client or patient whom they deem is a danger to himself or others.
    cdad's Avatar
    cdad Posts: 12,700, Reputation: 1438
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    #50

    Feb 27, 2018, 04:12 PM
    Tal, in th state where I live the back ground checks are not kept on file or atleast they are not suppose to be. That check varies from state to state. Example in California there is a minimum 3 day waiting period. It is considered a cooling off period. Im only giving a few examples of how the checks vary. For that I consider it a States rights issue rather then a governmental one. As it is now there can be private transfers so long as they are done in good faith. But it would be reasonable to have all transfers run through "your" states back ground checks system.

    With mental health I prefer to rely on professionals. Let them make decisions that would require a person to have restricted access to firearms. Simaler to the no fly list. Also persons with mentally stable conditions that had previous infractions should have an avenue for getting checked out to see if they can once again be cleared to own a firearm. Some conditions of mental ilness are well controlled with medication while there are others that will never qualify. We need to lift the cover and examine it on a case by case basis.
    cdad's Avatar
    cdad Posts: 12,700, Reputation: 1438
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    #51

    Feb 27, 2018, 04:21 PM
    Yes Oliver if we could all play nice it would be so much easier. Unfortunatly we seem to be more issue driven these days then melting pot. Maybe some day things will quiet down but as of today we all must deal the hand we are dealt.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #52

    Feb 28, 2018, 04:25 AM
    How apt CD, since we have been dealt a joker named Trump.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #54

    Feb 28, 2018, 08:47 PM
    My position remains that a business can decided to sell or not sell whatever legal merchandise or services it want to ,and to whoever they want to . IF this was about a homosexual wedding cake this move would not be applauded .It would be the subject of a law suit instead .That discrimination thingy .

    D*cks ..... well that's good pr . But they moved ARs off their racks a long time ago(since Sandy Hook).They've been selling them
    at their "Field and Stream" stores. No serious gun owner purchases guns at D*cks so this is pretty much a meaningless gesture on their part .

    Stephen Paddock was around 65 years old and he killed 58 people .So age doesn't really seem to be a factor . Should 21 be the minimum age for military service too ? How about voting ? Let's increase the voting age to 21 and require photo ids. Seems that is the new standard for exercising constitutional rights .



    This is funny . The libs will praise Walmart for a week until they go back to bashing them as greedy corporatists .

    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #55

    Feb 28, 2018, 09:16 PM
    You make some great points Tom, and yeah it's about PR, clearly aimed at younger shoppers, but a lot of companies are moving away from the NRA positions.

    US companies distance themselves from NRA as pressure mounts - ABC News

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/msn/c...nra/ar-BBJwOTu

    While conservatives want to fight back

    New York, Virginia, Ohio, Alabama court Delta Air Lines following Georgia lawmaker's tax cut threat - ABC News

    And buried by those headlines we have Hope Hicks quits after her "white lies for Trump testimony", and Kushner's clearance woes, AND his half a billion dollar loans from a few banks AFTER Trump won, (Infrastructure meetings according to him) and he still needs MO" MONEY. I know you saw the Dufus talking about taking guns from loonies before they had their due process.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #56

    Feb 28, 2018, 11:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    You make some great points Tom, and yeah it's about PR, clearly aimed at younger shoppers, but a lot of companies are moving away from the NRA positions.

    And buried by those headlines we have Hope Hicks quits after her "white lies for Trump testimony", and Kushner's clearance woes, AND his half a billion dollar loans from a few banks AFTER Trump won, (Infrastructure meetings according to him) and he still needs MO" MONEY. I know you saw the Dufus talking about taking guns from loonies before they had their due process.
    Dump talks and walks at the same time, talk is cheap and B/S cheaper and freely available. He can only do what Congress allows unless he is going to make some unlawful regulations. Once again Tom has pointed out the error of generalisation and popularism. He takes away the rights of the under 21, that doesn't loose many votes, he takes away the bump stocks, that doesn't cost many votes, he enforces the current laws, that doesn't take away many votes........................................incre dible a sitting President actually enforcing the law
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #57

    Mar 1, 2018, 08:09 AM
    Soundbites and TV appearances don't make policy, or enforce the law. Congress makes laws, and they haven't.
    cdad's Avatar
    cdad Posts: 12,700, Reputation: 1438
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    #58

    Mar 1, 2018, 02:18 PM
    They have to keep throwing the blame on the NRA because it really belongs to Obama. His policies created the situation in Florida that allowed the shooter to buy firearms in the first place.

    Note the date:

    https://nypost.com/2015/03/14/politi...-for-everyone/
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #59

    Mar 2, 2018, 05:05 AM
    So Donald kicked two own goals in week, take him off
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #60

    Mar 2, 2018, 08:30 AM
    He has too many sycophants, enablers, and loonies around him.

    Locals make and enforce LOCAL laws, CD. I cannot help but notice your anecdotal approach to find blame lacks the many other successful programs communities have enacted to deal with at risk youths. Even the Florida shooter is a product of LOCAL failures of lawmakers and law enforcement and needs correcting on that level. Not letting the feds off the hook for their failures but it's pretty obvious if you have kids in terror, somebody is NOT addressing the real issues there very effectively.

    Look it up for yourself as there are facts and data that far out weight the simple anecdotes and opinions of those who choose not to fairly judge the outcomes beyond the fear of headlines and opinions. You choose to only highlight the bad CD, WHY?

    https://youth.gov/youth-topics/preve.../chicago/brief

    http://www.asnchicago.org/programs

    It's not Obama dismantling the consent decree program.

    https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/14/polit...ees/index.html

    https://www.themarshallproject.org/2...ice-the-police

    So excuse me if I balk at your premise and facts. Not saying there aren't incidences, or continuing issues to deal with, but lets not get carried away and lower ourselves to hyperbole and broad blame. That's the easy way out.

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