Ask Experts Questions for FREE Help !
Ask
    Allen Farber's Avatar
    Allen Farber Posts: 191, Reputation: 1
    Junior Member
     
    #1

    Jan 5, 2018, 05:07 AM
    Meaning of quote from show
    All right, so the show is 'Gotham'. A mafioso type character who has the mayor, city council, and police department in his pocket is talking with a police detective about how he framed this random person for a crime so the public would see swift justice being done by the police department. The detective asks the mafia don why making the police department look good is so important to him. The don responds with "I'm a businessman. You can't have organized crime without law and order". What does this quote mean? And what's the significance of him saying he's a businessman at the beginning? If there is none it just seems kind of random

    Then a few episodes later, the detective tries to arrest the don and they have another exchange of dialogue. The don says to the detective "One day you'll see I'm right. You'll see I'm not the enemy...the system isn't the enemy...the enemy is anarchy. I told you that before but you didn't listen." So why would a lack in the mafia's involvement in the city government/system mean that that system will be completely destroyed and anarchy will happen? He's implying that the only type of government is a corrupt one but I don't get how that's possible

    Here's one of the scenes (sadly can't find the other one on youtube)

    around the 1:00 mark - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-ykoaoe3i8
    joypulv's Avatar
    joypulv Posts: 21,591, Reputation: 2941
    current pert
     
    #2

    Jan 5, 2018, 08:31 AM
    A 'good' police image is good for crime because it's then easier to pay them off. Less internal investigation and less public outcry.
    Crime is his business, just in the guise of legit businesses. Business is his crime, crime is his business.
    The nature of organized crime is that it gets into every aspect of legit society, from government, justice (law), and cops (order), to small business, sports, all the way to money laundering charities for widows and orphans.

    The later bit about anarchy is more surreal and philosophical than reality. The don is claiming that organized crime is part and parcel of law and order, of a society that works, vs. random crime, roving bands of thugs and highwaymen lopping off heads for fun and robbery, without any regard to family and those iconic widows and orphans. It's a scene meant to provoke thought, I'm guessing. Which do we want, which is 'better' for society? Free for all good and evil, or organization, even if good organization if riddled with evil? It's the cornerstone of protection rackets. I'm here to protect you and you are going to pay me to do so (or sell my booze, or whatever) whether you like it or not, because if you don't, I'll kill you. It's how it starts - someone gets known for helping the helpless in the neighborhood, and he bashes some heads to help the helpless, and before you know it, he's a crime syndicate.
    Allen Farber's Avatar
    Allen Farber Posts: 191, Reputation: 1
    Junior Member
     
    #3

    Jan 5, 2018, 09:17 AM
    Thanks for your answer. I understand a little better but when you say "crime is his business, just in the guise of a legit business" what exactly do you mean? And I understand when you say organized crime gets into cops (aka order) because they just pay them off but what do you mean when you say they get into justice (aka law)? That just seems a bit vague to me. And finally, it seems like they're trying to imply you can either be anarchy (criminals running around doing whatever they want) or an organization (where a select few of the criminals control the organization and the others are punished for their crimes). Why would it not be possible to have an organization that isn't controlled by criminals and all criminals are punished?

    And something I forgot to add in my question is in another episode, the same don character mentions he's losing his grip on the city and it's coming closer to anarchy. How does him not being as influential as he once was lead to criminals running rampant? And what would have stopped those said criminals from doing the things they're doing when the don was still in power? The police still exist regardless of how powerful the don is. I don't get why he thinks law and order and organized crime can't exist without each other
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
    Uber Member
     
    #4

    Jan 5, 2018, 10:56 AM
    On second part... losing his grip means losing his control (basically keeping the 2 bit players away out of fear what WILL happen to them) vs the situation he can't back up what he threatens half the time meaning other 2 bit thugs operate and expand unopposed by him much of the time. All gangs operate by controlling turf and having exclusive control (google up Bloods vs Crips violence to get an example).

    Lot of people misuse the Term Mafia... like calling copiers Xerox machines... Mafia is actually what is known as the Cosa Nostra (Sicily), and are separate entities from the Comorra (Campagnia), the 'Ndrangheta (Calabria) or Sacra Corona Unita (Puglia).

    Spend enough time in a country and you learn a lot of things about it.

    subnote....I sat across the isle on a plane from Giovani Falcone and briefly talked with him a month before they blew him up along with much of his motorcade. Yeah I knew who he was when he got on before he sat down across from me.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #5

    Jan 5, 2018, 11:58 AM
    Lets also put it in perspective of it being a movie, whose goal is to grip you with emotions and endear you to the characters be they good guys or bad. Expect flowery, flowing words that challenge the mind, and heart and make the characters real so you can love, hate, and identify with, and keep coming back for more.

    A drama about the complexity of good and evil, and the long and many conflicts, where good guys can be bad and do bad things, and the bad guys can do good things. It's characterization done by professionals, down to the sets, lighting, and effects.

    Yes it does mirror real life in many ways, and again it doesn't, but that's what hooks us to the shows we like. The best escape and distraction from reality there is.
    joypulv's Avatar
    joypulv Posts: 21,591, Reputation: 2941
    current pert
     
    #6

    Jan 5, 2018, 12:34 PM
    'when you say "crime is his business, just in the guise of a legit business" what exactly do you mean?' -- I mean all organized crime maintains 'legit' businesses as fronts.
    'what do you mean when you say they get into justice (aka law)?' --- They bribe judges and lawyers the same way as cops.
    'Why would it not be possible to have an organization that isn't controlled by criminals and all criminals are punished?' -- In theory it could. It just almost never does, except in small towns and tiny countries or societies such as jungle tribes.
    'How does him not being as influential as he once was lead to criminals running rampant?' -- Because they cower in fear of stepping on his toes! Unless there are other organized crime groups waiting to take over, which there almost always are.
    'And what would have stopped those said criminals from doing the things they're doing when the don was still in power?' --- Organized crime and petty crime (except for very local drug dealers) don't overlap.
    'The police still exist regardless of how powerful the don is. I don't get why he thinks law and order and organized crime can't exist without each other.' --- I tried to cover some of that concept earlier. It would take all day to answer it. I'll just say that he's referring to really well organized organized crime, the cream of the crime crop. He's not entirely right, I say. Crime needs to buy so many cops and judges and politicians that the profit margin gets razor thin sometimes. Law and order only 'needs' organized crime to steam roll right over the petty criminals who get in the way - and to get a very lucrative second paycheck. Sometimes they ask the mob to beat someone up when they can't.
    Allen Farber's Avatar
    Allen Farber Posts: 191, Reputation: 1
    Junior Member
     
    #7

    Jan 5, 2018, 12:52 PM
    Thanks for replying again. All right, so in summary, petty criminals (murderers, rapists, arsonists, thieves, etc.) don't commit crimes while there's organized crime because if they do, the mob will either directly punish them or through the police, who they've paid off. And the mob spends a lot of money paying off politicians and lawyers that their profit margin (which, do you mean money they earn from their illegal activities or metaphorical benefit of some sort?) amounts to barely anything. And police don't do anything about organized crime because they're getting money from these mobsters... but that kind of begs the question, what if there were no mobs to pay off the police, would the police just not exist and cause anarchy (petty criminals committing crimes without punishment) like they're implying? Also, you say petty criminals don't commit crimes because they're afraid of stepping on the don's toes...how do you know it's his toes they're stepping on? They could be targeting someone that isn't in the mob. But this doesn't apply to other organized crime families/groups? Just trying to make sure I understand this.

    Also, one more thing for anyone to answer, in that video I linked above when the don says to the detective "Gotham is on a knife edge. What do you suppose bringing down city hall and the police force will do? Will it make things better?" Then the detective goes from having a smug expression to some sort of realization as if he thinks the don made some sort of point. To me, it seems like the answer would obviously be "yes" why would getting rid of organized crime and keeping the police department clean, albeit rare, be a bad thing? Or maybe I just don't understand the benefits of keeping organized crime around like these two characters do
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #8

    Jan 5, 2018, 01:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Farber View Post
    Thanks for replying again. All right, so in summary, petty criminals (murderers, rapists, arsonists, thieves, etc.) don't commit crimes while there's organized crime because if they do, the mob will either directly punish them or through the police, who they've paid off. And the mob spends a lot of money paying off politicians and lawyers that their profit margin (which, do you mean money they earn from their illegal activities or metaphorical benefit of some sort?) amounts to barely anything. And police don't do anything about organized crime because they're getting money from these mobsters... but that kind of begs the question, what if there were no mobs to pay off the police, would the police just not exist and cause anarchy (petty criminals committing crimes without punishment) like they're implying? Also, you say petty criminals don't commit crimes because they're afraid of stepping on the don's toes... how do you know it's his toes they're stepping on? They could be targeting someone that isn't in the mob. But this doesn't apply to other organized crime families/groups? Just trying to make sure I understand this.
    Criminals are a cowardly lot* and they will commit crimes just because they think they can get away with it, or have no choice, or they are just CRIMINALS and that's what they do. Consequences never matter with them be it justice by cop, or crime boss, or another criminal. Crazy right? They also make their own rules of behavior, and LOGIC, which works for them, as crazy as that is to anyone else. They will say anything to that end.

    Also, one more thing for anyone to answer, in that video I linked above when the don says to the detective "Gotham is on a knife edge. What do you suppose bringing down city hall and the police force will do? Will it make things better?" Then the detective goes from having a smug expression to some sort of realization as if he thinks the don made some sort of point. To me, it seems like the answer would obviously be "yes" why would getting rid of organized crime and keeping the police department clean, albeit rare, be a bad thing? Or maybe I just don't understand the benefits of keeping organized crime around like these two characters do
    NEVER, ever, try to make sense of the criminal mind or how it works, it will drive you nuts and not meant to be understood, just justify what they do so they are in a better light. Not all cops, officials are corrupt, but they all cover their own a$$ to stay out of jail and make a few bucks on the side. TV/Movie characters are subjects of the writers mind that wrote them. In real life though, it's not that easy to convict these crime bosses because they make sure they don't get caught and hide behind their willing sycophants taking the rap, and smart fancy high priced lawyers, and a tight criminal organization.

    There is no benefit for keeping criminal predators around except for them, and the people who work for them. Anybody can be corrupted by power, money, and influence, and its really hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Heck some of us can't tell fantasy from reality half the time!

    *A quote from Batman comics when Bruce Wayne donned the scary mask!
    Allen Farber's Avatar
    Allen Farber Posts: 191, Reputation: 1
    Junior Member
     
    #9

    Jan 5, 2018, 01:33 PM
    "Not all cops, officials are corrupt, but they all cover their own a$$ to stay out of jail and make a few bucks on the side" But isn't evading jail (assuming they've done something wrong) and accepting bribes/money both things that would make cops and officials corrupt?
    joypulv's Avatar
    joypulv Posts: 21,591, Reputation: 2941
    current pert
     
    #10

    Jan 5, 2018, 02:42 PM
    I'm getting a bit weary because you have a way of extrapolating from what I say in a way that I wouldn't.
    'petty criminals... don't commit crimes while there's organized crime because if they do, the mob will either directly punish them or through the police'... I didn't say that. It's a matter of degree, and of type of crime, and size of city, and so on. Please don't be so eager to paint every concept as either/or. Most petty criminals don't have a brain, or if they do, they don't think in terms of consequences. They are vain and are sure they will get away with any crime.
    'And the mob spends a lot of money paying off politicians and lawyers that their profit margin (which, do you mean money they earn from their illegal activities or metaphorical benefit of some sort?) amounts to barely anything.' --- ONLY SOMETIMES!!! Not usually. And I mean real money.
    '..if there were no mobs to pay off the police, would the police just not exist...' no, police would still exist
    'and cause anarchy...like they're implying?' not true either, but it's part of the mob rationale
    'Also, you say petty criminals don't commit crimes because they're afraid of stepping on the don's toes...how do you know it's his toes they're stepping on?' --- By 'his toes' I mean his and all his organization's toes. Like I said, petty criminals don't think. When they get into the mob's territory, they get a warning, or get beaten up, or killed.
    'They could be targeting someone that isn't in the mob. But this doesn't apply to other organized crime families/groups?' --- It can apply to anyone
    Allen Farber's Avatar
    Allen Farber Posts: 191, Reputation: 1
    Junior Member
     
    #11

    Jan 6, 2018, 11:35 AM
    I get you up until the part about petty criminals on organized crime's territory. What I was asking is what if it isn't a mobster that these petty criminals target... why would the mob care about what happens to some random innocent citizens?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #12

    Jan 6, 2018, 11:59 AM
    They don't! Mobsters are but a part of the criminal element, and there are also gangs that claim territory, and compete with other gangs. There are many levels of criminal activities. Mot criminals shun the heat of scrutiny and attention, and avoid it. Most high level mobsters/gangsters and bosses distance themselves from their criminal activities by using flunkies to do the dirty work for them. This insulates them from prosecution to a large degree, and allows them to move about as legitimate "business" but make no mistake what they care about is their ill gotten gains and not the victims.

    It should be noted also that those lower level flunkies are ill trained to function in society honestly, and go back and forth through the prison system plying the often only trade they know, and can be employed at. Whether a part of an organization, or independent of one.
    Allen Farber's Avatar
    Allen Farber Posts: 191, Reputation: 1
    Junior Member
     
    #13

    Jan 10, 2018, 02:49 PM
    Sorry to bring this back up again but I’m still confused. He says that there’s no organized crime without law and order. Why would getting rid of law and order also get rid of organized crime? It would be easier for them to operate and make a bigger profit if they didn’t have any police or government officials to pay off.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #14

    Jan 10, 2018, 06:14 PM
    But they do have law and order because there are criminals. That's just a reality no matter how a criminal justifies his criminal behavior or wraps it in the deceptive flair of doing good himself. This is the context of a DRAMA TV show based on the Batman theme. It's merely characterization to humanize the characters so viewers can relate. Obviously they have struck a chord with you and you are taking this fiction as being real so it must have worked.
    Allen Farber's Avatar
    Allen Farber Posts: 191, Reputation: 1
    Junior Member
     
    #15

    Jan 10, 2018, 06:58 PM
    Even in a fictionalized universe, things need to be reasonable or plausible (well they don't need to be but they should, especially when it's supposed to be set in real life)... and I know there's law and order in the city. But the don is saying that organized crime is only able to exist if law and order exists. So I'm saying, hypothetically speaking, if there was no law and order why wouldn't organized crime be able to operate anymore?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #16

    Jan 11, 2018, 07:06 AM
    The don is a typical lying criminal. Find anyplace where there is little laws and you will see crime thriving very well with no checks available. Did I not say that humans, criminal or not will do and say anything to justify what they are doing to escape consequences for their actions. Not everyone falls for their line of crap, they know that too, but there are enough that do so they spew the line to elevate their own elegance to separate them from the average criminal.
    joypulv's Avatar
    joypulv Posts: 21,591, Reputation: 2941
    current pert
     
    #17

    Jan 11, 2018, 07:20 AM
    ''... hypothetically speaking, if there was no law and order why wouldn't organized crime be able to operate anymore?''
    Because then it wouldn't be 'organized!' Nothing would. I say that partly tongue in cheek. It truly is hypothetical, because the two concepts won't coincide.

    You ask good questions. I just think that you look for nice neat concrete answers. You want to conclude with one sentence or two. Much of what you ask about would take a book or three, and can be discussed and argued til the cows come home. I like that kind of topic. But I won't wrap them up in a minute, day, week, or lifetime!
    Allen Farber's Avatar
    Allen Farber Posts: 191, Reputation: 1
    Junior Member
     
    #18

    Jan 11, 2018, 06:02 PM
    Thanks for being patient with me. My understanding is a little better. But I guess I'm getting ahead of myself... by law and order do they mean actual law and order (government, laws, judges, lawyers, police, etc.) or like the "laws" of organized crime (no going after certain women and children, only make certain people pay for protection, etc.)
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #19

    Jan 11, 2018, 07:15 PM
    I am sure Law&Order means cops and courts. Just want to add, consider the source, meaning TV shows are mostly fiction written for a certain audience. They take literary license when they produce these shows. Translation: they can, and do, exaggerate, and glamorize for dramatic effect.
    Allen Farber's Avatar
    Allen Farber Posts: 191, Reputation: 1
    Junior Member
     
    #20

    Jan 12, 2018, 04:50 PM
    So basically the root of all this is why wouldn't organized crime be 'organized' without courts and police officers?

Not your question? Ask your question View similar questions

 

Question Tools Search this Question
Search this Question:

Advanced Search


Check out some similar questions!

Meaning of a movie quote? [ 1 Answers ]

What is the meaning of this phrase from Timo Cruz's speech from the movie Coach Carter: There is nothing enlightened about shrinking, So that other people won't feel secure around you.

Meaning of Quote! [ 4 Answers ]

One way to open your eyes to unnoticed beauty is to ask yourself, ‘What if I had never seen this before? What if I knew I would never see it again?’” —Rachel Carson Just say how you feel about this quote. How does this relate to an issue of concern to you? Pleasee and Thank you. :]

QUOTE meaning. [ 1 Answers ]

“Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.” —Marie Curie How does this relate to an issue of concern to you. I'm thinking its about ignorance but not sure what to say. :\

Meaning of Macbeth Quote [ 1 Answers ]

In Scene 2, Macbeth describes his surroundings by saying. "Light thickens, and the crow/ Makes wing to th' rooky wood." How can these remarks also be seen as a metaphorical commentary on the events of the play?

Quote Meaning? [ 4 Answers ]

What does this quote mean by Abraham Lincoln? " Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"


View more questions Search