[Alty]

I have three friends, one that's family to us, that I need some advice about. Just to keep things straight and not use real names I'll call our friend that's family (S), and the other two friends (L) and (E).

S lives with L and E and has for around 2 years now, they rent a house. S and L started a business together doing renos and it was going very well. E was in college. There have been bumpy roads, but for the most part all was going well.

A little over 5 months ago E got an apprenticeship in another town, pretty far from where they live, and lives in camp there. She works 10-12 hours a day 21 days straight, then gets a few days off (between 3-5) to go home before the next shift starts. It has put a strain on the E's and L's relationship (they're a couple).

For a little over 4 months now L has decided he's no longer interested in working the business he and S started. Instead he goes fishing every day, and when he's not fishing he's sleeping. This has made the already difficult relationship even harder, but this time it's not only between L and E, S is also being screwed over.

Around 2 weeks ago E came home from camp and told L that she's done with his behavior, that he has to get his act together, that she has one foot and a half out the door. E and S had been discussing this for months, and until that time she wasn't ready to talk to L about it. She just let it stew for months until she's now at the point where she no longer wants in this relationship with L.

L loves E, but he's also a very impatient person, and also very narcissistic, only thinks of himself and what he wants. He's a likeable person, but he's also the kind of person that you think will have your back because he's your friend and he's nice, but he'd stab you in the back in a heartbeat if he wants something. Case in point, their neighbor lets him use one of her vehicles. What she doesn't know, and what everyone has been threatened not to tell her, is he doesn't have a drivers license. She hasn't added him to her insurance (obviously, because you can't add someone that doesn't have a license), and he drives that vehicle every day, has full use of it. S asked me what would happen if he had an accident. So, I told him, and he told L, and this is what I said. He's an unlicensed driver with full use of this vehicle. If he gets into an accident his neighbor, the one that owns the car, will have to pay, out of pocket, all repairs, and all medical bills, and it could go up to over a million dollars depending on what happens. Her only recourse would be to sue him for the damages, but she can't even do that because she committed fraud by not adding him to her insurance as a full time driver, and if she hadn't committed fraud she'd know he doesn't have a license. So she'd be screwed, she could lose everything she owns. S told L this, and L said he didn't care, he just wouldn't get into an accident, and if he did, not his problem. He wants the car and wants to drive around. Can't go fishing every day without a car.

Anyway, after E went back to camp L told S that he was serious about working in the business again. So S called a customer that had been asking for a quote for them to do work. He got the quote together, they got the job, it seemed like everything was turning around. Then, the day before the job was set to start L tells S that he got a part time job and will no longer be a part of the business. He got a job where he works 16 days a month for minimum wage, because he thinks that's what E wants him to do to prove he's back on track.

Now S is screwed. He had to cancel the job, it's a two man job and he was relying on L. He wanted to find someone else but with less than 24 hours notice he couldn't. He had to cancel it. Now S has also given up on the business because he needs a partner.

L then texted E to tell her he's doing good now, has a job, she can now forgive him and they can be a couple again and live happily ever after.

Well, E has been mad for months. Yes, she should have talked to him sooner, but she didn't. Now this anger has been festering for over 4 months, and a part time job isn't going to make the anger go away, especially because to get that job he screwed over his business partner, again!

So she didn't text back. He keeps texting, and now he's giving her ultimatums, and accusing her of cheating and frankly, bullying her. She keeps ignoring his texts hoping he'll figure out that right now she doesn't want to talk, text in a few months when you have your crap together.

So this past weekend he texted her saying that if she doesn't respond he'll take that to mean they're done. She didn't respond. So now he's quit his job and decided to fly back home, leaving S jobless, taking care of their pets (2 dogs, 2 cats), and paying L's share of the rent when he's already lent L and E a few thousand dollars for rent in the past that they never re-payed.

So S contacts E and asks what's going to happen. E has put in notice that she'll be leaving in November with the person they're renting from. She's paid her share of the rent until the end of November. S had no job now and cannot afford to pay for the house by himself, so now, come the end of November he's also homeless, and likely homeless with E and L's two dogs, 2 cats and all their stuff.

Um... so where does that leave S? So he has until the end of next month to move out, and what about their stuff, does he just leave it? And what about the 2 dogs and the 2 cats? E can't pack everything up, she has literally 5 days in between shifts to come home and get her stuff out of the house before the end of next month, and find homes for her pets because she can't take them to camp with her and L has moved back home, which is around a 5 hour plane ride away.

Hubby and I have offered to clear out the bunny/bird/computer room, put everything in the family room, and S can move in with us. But L and E's pets can't come with, we can't take on 2 more dogs and 2 more cats. Not happening! Nor can we store their stuff. If S moves in most of his stuff will have to go to storage, we don't have the room.

We would give him 2 months to get a job, then he'd have to pay rent and buy his own food. We could work it out. No, we can't really afford to carry him for that long, but he's family to us.

He's thinking about it, but he doesn't want to screw over E and L.

Now here's the actual question. Me, I want to give E and L a piece of my mind and tell them to get their acts together and stop thinking only of themselves in all of this. Break up, go ahead, I think it's a good idea, but do not leave S to deal with all your stuff after the breakup, especially when you've both screwed him over so many times already.

I'm friends with them too, but I've known S for 16 years and he's family to us. I've known them less than 2 years, and I am not happy with the way they're treating S. I would be nice about it if I talked to them. I would just point out what they're doing to S and that they need to talk and work out how to separate and leave S out of it. S doesn't want me to do it, he'd rather sit at home, drink, and pretend none of it's going to affect him or that somehow it will all work out. He doesn't want to get in the middle of it. Um... news flash, you are in the middle of it, they put you there, and you're not doing a thing to get out of it!

So what would you do if you were me, on the outside looking in?

[Wondergirl]

Wow! That was a lot to read, but well written and with paragraph breaks. :-)

What would I do? I'd take in the animals and let the humans work this out amongst themselves and by themselves. None of them sound open to suggestions. The animals are victims of the humans' egocentric behavior. They are who need rescuing.

[J_9]

Wow! That was well written, but very long.

Stay out of it. Stay supportive of your friend of 16 years, but they are adults. They got themselves into this drama, they get themselves out. You have to think about how this would cause a major upheaval in your own family. Sure you and S have been friends for 16 years, but your family is forever.

Don't drag yourself and your family into their drama.

[catonsville]

It might of made for better reading, if you had used names instead of letters. Not real names.

[Wondergirl]

It might of made for better reading, if you had used names instead of letters. Not real names.

And mention gender if using letters.

[J_9]

So, you want jobless drunk dude in your home with the premise that he will have a job after two months? Yeah, how do you really see that working out? In six months you will be posting on the Law boards asking how to evict him because he didn't get a job, pay rent, or buy groceries. He's also not a very good role model for your children.

Think with your head Ally. Not your heart.

[talaniman]

You really should find a way to support a friend without bringing his drama and issues into your own home. That's not fair to you or your family no matter how much you want to help a friend who in reality doesn't need it.

Find the animals a good home, and let the adults fend for themselves. That's more than enough help for adults who need to clean up their own mess. I'm not surprised at all that you would be willing to put yourself out for others at all, especially when you see a friend in need. I just don't think it wise for you to bailout or take responsibility for the mistakes of others.

Your friend will get it together if he has too, and maybe the hardship experience will make him better for it. It's not like he couldn't see the handwriting on the wall, but he chose to ignore it, so now he pays for his selfish behavior and poor choices.

[Cat1864]

Alty, if this has been going on for months, why doesn't S have a job now? Was the business supporting him even though L was slacking off? Has he been looking for one? What has he done in the past during the Winter slow-down? Are there any long term jobs available or are most seasonal work that will last until the holidays are over?

Can you allow him to help with the renovations you are doing as part of his board until he gets a job?

Who will pay for the storage unit?

Unless the laws are different in Canada, he is not responsible for their property. It is between them and the landlord. He needs to take care of his stuff.

As for the animals, I see his choices as:

Call L and E and tell them to make arrangements for their animals. Then,
1. Get a place of his own and take care of them himself.
2. Find a foster family for them.
3. Surrender them to a local shelter.

Do not enable S to continue to wallow in self-pity. If he is in dire straits now and isn't doing anything to help himself, then he probably won't do much with you playing mother to his teenage boy act. You already have a teenage son. Do you really need another one?

I have a feeling that you only know about the tip of the iceberg. I am really worried that there is a lot more financial and relationship drama just under the surface. Please, be very careful.

I know you care about him. I know you want to help. I know how hard it is to stay out of it when you care about those involved. However, while he is in the middle and needs to take responsibility for his part in cleaning up the mess, you aren't. It isn't your mess. Do not put yourself in the middle.

[smoothy]

I'm with the others... You have to draw the line someplace, and I would here... someone who would stab you in the back is not someone you ever want in your house... I've had friends like that.. I keep them at a safe distance where I can keep an eye on them. Save the inevitable "Et tu Brut" moment for someone else.

I'm with Tal too, sometimes it will take some hardship for a lesson to get through an exceptionally thick skull. Otherwise if they keep getting bailed out the same behavior patterns will continue to repeat as no lesson was learned except don't worry someone will bail me out again.

And the uninsured and unlicensed driver thing. In the USA that can turn REALLY ugly really fast if someone gets injured or killed by them. Accidents happen, but here that can open the own up to liability issues far above just the obvious financial ones. And if they think they have problems now...wait until there is a judgement of a few million dollars over their head and lets say alcohol was involved....the possible civil and criminal liability for having helped that to occur. To the car owner...not jut the driver.

I'd say sorry, we just don't have the space and can't afford it right now...and leave it at that. Offer all the moral support you want, thats free...and doesn't have the same impact as someone mooching under your roof.

[CravenMorhead]

Now here's the actual question. Me, I want to give E and L a piece of my mind and tell them to get their acts together and stop thinking only of themselves in all of this. Break up, go ahead, I think it's a good idea, but do not leave S to deal with all your stuff after the breakup, especially when you've both screwed him over so many times already.

I'm friends with them too, but I've known S for 16 years and he's family to us. I've known them less than 2 years, and I am not happy with the way they're treating S. I would be nice about it if I talked to them. I would just point out what they're doing to S and that they need to talk and work out how to separate and leave S out of it. S doesn't want me to do it, he'd rather sit at home, drink, and pretend none of it's going to affect him or that somehow it will all work out. He doesn't want to get in the middle of it. Um... news flash, you are in the middle of it, they put you there, and you're not doing a thing to get out of it!

So what would you do if you were me, on the outside looking in?

My view is that your relationship with E&L was through S, S is Family and E&L aren't. With E&L doing what they're doing they're going to lose their friendship with S. So letting E&L have a piece of your mind is acceptable. You can do it with very little blow back on your part. The problem is, what will it accomplish?

What is your intended outcome of going off on E&L? To help S out? As a cathartic release? If it isn't going to accomplish anything positive it would be easier to just let stuff be.

I would respect S's request of not getting involved. Be a good friend to S and support him. Cut ties and forget about E&L.

[Alty]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Sorry that the post was so long.

Since I posted E and L have definitely split up. L moved back home yesterday. E is coming home this weekend for her week off.

S and I had a long talk, and he's decided to talk to E about keeping the house and finding 2 roomates (it's a 4 bedroom house) to help cover the cost. That way she has a place to go when she's on break. Also, come January she's back at school for 4 months (part of the apprenticeship), and will need a place to live. The rent they pay for the house is a really really good deal. They've been there for years. Nowadays you can't find a one bedroom apartment for what they're paying each month for a house. Also, good luck finding a place that will allow 2 dogs and 2 cats.

If E decides she doesn't want to stay S is going to ask the landlord if he can take over the lease and then find roomates of his own.

For the last few months he's been living off savings, and cashed in his RRSP's, but that's not going to last much longer. He's currently looking for a job. Shouldn't be too hard, right now many businesses are hiring for the Christmas season.

Someone mentioned his drinking. The drinking has just been the last 2 weeks while he's been dealing with this relationship drama. Not an ideal way to handle stress, but I think we can all understand that sometimes you just want to do something that will take you away from the current situation, when you're stuck in the current situation.

Things should be better now that L is gone. I think that finding a way to stay in the house is a very good plan. He has the shop and can continue to make things to sell (which he does on the side of his reno business and does very well with), and get a full time job, or maybe he can even find another partner eventually.

I continue to offer my moral support, an ear to listen, and that's it. I've also reached out to E and told her I'm around if she needs to talk. L, well I picked L for Loser, and that's exactly what he is. I'm hoping he stays where he is and that's the end of it.

[Alty]

I'm with the others... You have to draw the line someplace, and I would here... someone who would stab you in the back is not someone you ever want in your house... I've had friends like that.. I keep them at a safe distance where I can keep an eye on them. Save the inevitable "Et tu Brut" moment for someone else.

I'm with Tal too, sometimes it will take some hardship for a lesson to get through an exceptionally thick skull. Otherwise if they keep getting bailed out the same behavior patterns will continue to repeat as no lesson was learned except don't worry someone will bail me out again.

And the uninsured and unlicensed driver thing. In the USA that can turn REALLY ugly really fast if someone gets injured or killed by them. Accidents happen, but here that can open the own up to liability issues far above just the obvious financial ones. And if they think they have problems now...wait until there is a judgement of a few million dollars over their head and lets say alcohol was involved....the possible civil and criminal liability for having helped that to occur. To the car owner...not jut the driver.

I'd say sorry, we just don't have the space and can't afford it right now...and leave it at that. Offer all the moral support you want, thats free...and doesn't have the same impact as someone mooching under your roof.

Just want to point out that the person we offered to let live with us, is not the back stabber, he's the one that got his back stabbed. He's also not the one that is driving unlicensed and uninsured, that's also the back stabber, and not the person that's like family to us.

The only issue I'd have with our friend moving in is that we really don't have the space. He would pay rent, and buy his own food. Thankfully it seems that he has a plan to stay where he is, and I'm crossing my fingers that it works out. :)

[smoothy]

Just want to point out that the person we offered to let live with us, is not the back stabber, he's the one that got his back stabbed. He's also not the one that is driving unlicensed and uninsured, that's also the back stabber, and not the person that's like family to us.

The only issue I'd have with our friend moving in is that we really don't have the space. He would pay rent, and buy his own food. Thankfully it seems that he has a plan to stay where he is, and I'm crossing my fingers that it works out. :)

Thanks for clarifying that.. I read it wrong. And glad the issue took care of itself.

Personally I'd only let a friend visit... only immediate family could stay for an extended time while they get through a hard time. Probibly has a lot to do with having had to have roommates more years than I wanted, and having heard too much about people that come to visit and overstay their welcome.

[joypulv]

I know a lot of guys in the building trades, and they know a lot of other guys in the trades, and many of them borrow each other for 2 man jobs, or team up long term, or know people who are in the same boat S was in when L opted out. So I don't understand why S wasn't networking with other builder types all this time. He sounds resourceful enough. And consequently, he doesn't need 2 months to get his act together. It's all a bit moot now, right? He wants to keep the house, and should. What you could do is help interview roommates, because he sounds like too nice a guy. (So do you, to some extent...)