[Wondergirl]

What about Hebrews 11?

I'd never heard of dispensationalism and the rapture until I saw them mentioned on this site years ago. Seems like a lot of to-do about nothing. But then we humans like to make things more complicated than they really are.

[dwashbur]

As far as you saying you believed it before but debunked the entire thing means ZIP to me. I know you know it. Of course John didn't know about the Gospel of GRACE because he had no idea there was going to be a GRACE period. As far as he was concerned, Jesus was there to set up his Kingdom. As we ALL know now, that isn't what happened because Jesus had to die and redeem mankind. It's called the Grace period and it WILL end. There are different dispensations and different "present truths" as Peter said in his epistle. John the Baptize present truth is NOT the same as Paul's "present truth", which is NOT the same as Moses' "present truth", which of course is NOT the same as Abraham's "present truth", and last but not least it is NOT the same as Adam's "present truth". Same gospel? Of COURSE it is! Everyone comes to the Father through FAITH and because of Jesus! Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. But he deals with people differently depending on the dispensation. This isn't rocket science. Surely you can see it even if you DID debunk it. Once the grace dispensation is OVER and it WILL end with the Rapture and the unveiling of the anti-Christ, what will be preached will NOT BE the gospel of GRACE. Presented to the people during the tribulation period will BE... YO! Look UP people on the EARTH the Messiah is coming back to Rule and Reign believe it, believe in HIM. It's exactly the same thing John the baptized preach. I'm not suggesting a different Gospel as much as I am saying it will be a new "present truth" Understand?

I see a whole lot of theological rambling with nothing from the Bible to back it up. That sums up dispensationalism in a nutshell, all right.

[ma0641]

So we nitpick the verses we may want. Do we disregard the ones that don't make sense. The bible is full of inane things. "make sure you put your daughter in a room without windows or so she can't see the front door". Sirach, I believe. Beating your slaves, stoning an adulterous woman, having your disobedient children killed. One verse says "sins of the father" another says, no sins of the father to the children". Paul says we were all formed from the dirt of the earth-didn't he read about Adams rib? The bible was never designed for justification, otherwise we would all have sinned 700 different ways according to Leviticus unless you may be a very devout Orthodox Jew. Then people say, well "that's just the OT-and the commandments are?
The past is past, the future is unknown even to Jesus, do the best you can today.
How many times have people predicted "The end is near"? Paul did, 2,000 years ago.
Last year we had the Mayan calendar worry, OOPS still around. Do unto others.

[classyT]

I see a whole lot of theological rambling with nothing from the Bible to back it up. That sums up dispensationalism in a nutshell, all right.

LOL yeah that's what you say, when you got nuttin. It's truth. Try to rightly divide the truth... you may wise up!

WG

What do you mean what about Hebrews 11? I don't get it... it's the faith chapter not sure what your question is...

What about Hebrews 11?

I'd never heard of dispensationalism and the rapture until I saw them mentioned on this site years ago. Seems like a lot of to-do about nothing. But then we humans like to make things more complicated than they really are.

And I had never heard that people actually didn't believe in dispensations. Wow! I don't know how you get around it. It's right there in black and white.

So we nitpick the verses we may want. Do we disregard the ones that don't make sense. The bible is full of inane things. "make sure you put your daughter in a room without windows or so she can't see the front door". Sirach, I believe. Beating your slaves, stoning an adulterous woman, having your disobedient children killed. One verse says "sins of the father" another says, no sins of the father to the children". Paul says we were all formed from the dirt of the earth-didn't he read about Adams rib? The bible was never designed for justification, otherwise we would all have sinned 700 different ways according to Leviticus unless you may be a very devout Orthodox Jew. Then people say, well "that's just the OT-and the commandments are?
The past is past, the future is unknown even to Jesus, do the best you can today.
How many times have people predicted "The end is near"? Paul did, 2,000 years ago.
Last year we had the Mayan calendar worry, OOPS still around. Do unto others.

A day with God is like a 1000 years and a 1000 years as one day. Our time in not God's time but he doesn't want us to be ignorant. Jesus may have said only God knows the day and hour but he also said we could know if we were NEAR the time... just saying

[dwashbur]

LOL yeah that's what you say, when you got nuttin. It's truth. Try to rightly divide the truth... you may wise up!

Speaking of having nuttin, you stole that line from me. I've used it many times in discussions with you. I'm glad to see you're finally learning SOMETHING from me, at least.

And you thoroughly missed my point (as usual). Your little treatise had NOT ONE SINGLE BIBLE VERSE IN IT. So there was no "word" there to divide, which was exactly my point.

WG

What do you mean what about Hebrews 11? I don't get it... it's the faith chapter not sure what your question is...

You seriously don't get what that chapter has to do with your little theological mishmash? Unbelievable. I'll leave that one for WG to explain.

And I had never heard that people actually didn't believe in dispensations. Wow! I don't know how you get around it. It's right there in black and white.

Okay, show me the word "dispensation" there in black and white. It's not there until some self-important theologian crams it in there. Get real.

A day with God is like a 1000 years and a 1000 years as one day. Our time in not God's time but he doesn't want us to be ignorant. Jesus may have said only God knows the day and hour but he also said we could know if we were NEAR the time... just saying

Nice going! You just shot yourself in the foot. Yes, He said we could know if it was NEAR. But "NEAR" could be several thousand years from now because a day with God is like 1000 years. Hello? McFly? Might be a good idea to start listening to yourself once in a while ;)

[classyT]

Dave, Dave, Dave,

Am I rookie? Really? You want scripture : 2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them and be established in THE PRESENT TRUTH! Hmmm? There were past truths that are no longer applicable. We are under grace, that is now the present truth!

I clearly said that everyone gets to heaven the same way... FAITH! So I really don't get why she put Hebrews 11 out there. So yes, it needs to be explained.

Ha ha ha... I liked the McFly jab. I actually use that a LOT! Sigh... well when you are so messed up that you can't even see the times... the fig tree, Israel becomes a nation in a day and THIS generations seeing the son of man coming... I can't help you out. We can KNOW it's near even at the door but when you can't read the times and the seasons and you want to be a scoffer, Hello? McFly is anything IN THERE?

[dwashbur]

Dave, Dave, Dave,

Am I rookie? Really? You want scripture : 2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them and be established in THE PRESENT TRUTH! Hmmm? There were past truths that are no longer applicable. We are under grace, that is now the present truth!

Yes, I forgot, you learned a new cliché. That phrase doesn't even remotely mean what you think it does. It has nothing to do with dispensations or any of that other phony theology. The NIV puts it much more accurately:

So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have.

Nothing in that chapter even remotely hints at any kind of "present" or "past" truth. In context, he's saying you'll do well to stick with what you have now, and when I get there I'll give you more.

Read the rest of the chapter and find out what's really going on, McFly ;)

But this is how dispensationalism works: grab a word or phrase here and another one there and put it together into a chimera that never actually existed. You are making my point for me.

And by the way, I don't know if you're a rookie or not, but you sure theology like one! :P

[Wondergirl]

...he's saying you'll do well to stick with what you have now, and when I get there I'll give you more.

Like Hebrews 11 (NIV) says:

1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

39 These [aforementioned ancients] were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

[dwashbur]

Like Hebrews 11 (NIV) says:

1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

39 These [aforementioned ancients] were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Precisely. That chapter says all of the people in the BC world were reconciled to God, saved if you will, by FAITH, just like we are. No difference. No two ways of salvation. This chapter makes it as clear as it can be, and when you presented it, the response was "I don't get it."

[classyT]

Precisely. That chapter says all of the people in the BC world were reconciled to God, saved if you will, by FAITH, just like we are. No difference. No two ways of salvation. This chapter makes it as clear as it can be, and when you presented it, the response was "I don't get it."

Ok how many ways can I say this... I already said everyone was saved the same way!! That's why I didn't get WG post... don't make me come through this computer and smack you sideways. EVERYONE comes by Faith and by the Blood of JESUS CHRIST. The blood of bulls and goats were only a type, it only covered their sin because the Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world. I said it already. It is FAITH! So her post was not necessary and confusing to me. And yes I didn't get her post because I already said sit. :P :P ugh errrr and grrrrf and yowsie you are frustrating.

[Wondergirl]

Ok how many ways can I say this... I already said everyone was saved the same way!! That's why I didn't get WG post...

But the "ancients" didn't KNOW exactly what God was going to do and how He was going to do it. They simply had faith He would follow through. You had said each person had "a truth."

John the Baptize present truth is NOT the same as Paul's "present truth", which is NOT the same as Moses' "present truth", which of course is NOT the same as Abraham's "present truth", and last but not least it is NOT the same as Adam's "present truth".

No, there was only one truth, and they trusted God to follow through on that truth.

[classyT]

WG,


Disagree. The present truth in the garden of Eden was don't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil... they did! Their answer is the same as my answer : Jesus! ( Genesis 3:15) When Moses gave the big 10 that was the present truth for about 1500 years. The Lord visited their sins, there was generational curses, they lived UNDER THE LAW. They had to offer animal sacrifices, They couldn't eat pork, they couldn't touch the dead... etc. etc... The Holy Spirit did not indwell them, he came upon them. That is NOT my truth. My truth is Grace. Once I accepted Jesus as my savior, I was made righteous, my sins are no longer imputed to me, the Holy Spirit indwells me... different truths for different dispensations. But let me be CLEAR Jesus was always the answer.
By Jesus Christ, I no longer live with generational curses.

I tried to edit the last line shouldn't be there, it belonged up a couple sentences but I couldn't edit it.. sorry.

[Alty]

Oh for goodness sake, why can't you religious people just believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe the same thing?

Live and let live already! No way you're all ever going to agree so just let it go, don't give yourself an ulcer and just go on living your life the way you see fit, and believe what you want to believe even if others disagree. Why do you feel the need to have others verify and solidify what you believe unless you yourself have doubts?

This thread was going to fail from minute one. Back up your beliefs with scripture? Um..that's like asking a magician to back up his trick with actual magic. Actually, the magician would have a better chance backing it up. No two Christians, no two religions, no two people that follow the same religion, will ever agree on everything "scripture" has to say. That's just a fact, because everyone that reads the bible interprets it in their own way, picks and chooses things to solidify their opinion and beliefs.

I just really wonder why religious people always ask questions like this. It reeks of insecurity and doubt, begging people to back up what you want to believe. Why not just believe it and forget what other people think?

And before you chastise me for posting, you asked the question begging for someone to say exactly what I just said.

It is called a belief for a reason. It's not called a fact for the very same reason. Just believe and stop trying to get others to share that belief.

Good Luck.

[dwashbur]

THIS THING IS BEING WEIRD! IT PUT TWO DIFFERENT POSTS TOGETHER INTO ONE AND I CAN'T GET IT TO STOP! AND BESIDES, I'VE FALLEN AND I CAN'T GET UP - wait, that was something else...

Ok how many ways can I say this... I already said everyone was saved the same way!! That's why I didn't get WG post... don't make me come through this computer and smack you sideways. EVERYONE comes by Faith and by the Blood of JESUS CHRIST. The blood of bulls and goats were only a type, it only covered their sin because the Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world. I said it already. It is FAITH! So her post was not necessary and confusing to me. And yes I didn't get her post because I already said sit. :P :P ugh errrr and grrrrf and yowsie you are frustrating.

You said there are two different ways of salvation. You said we're presently under grace, but all the ages around it are under something different. If this doesn't illustrate that you have no idea WHAT you're saying, I don't know what will. Because you are going in circles, saying one thing then saying another then saying I didn't say that but you did. You said John and after the rapture and all those people are under a different system than grace, but now you say they're not. Make up your mind.

For me, it's partly intellectual exercise, and partly it's just fun to tie ClassyT in knots using her own words!

Oh for goodness sake, why can't you religious people just believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe the same thing?

Live and let live already! No way you're all ever going to agree so just let it go, don't give yourself an ulcer and just go on living your life the way you see fit, and believe what you want to believe even if others disagree. Why do you feel the need to have others verify and solidify what you believe unless you yourself have doubts?

This thread was going to fail from minute one. Back up your beliefs with scripture? Um..that's like asking a magician to back up his trick with actual magic. Actually, the magician would have a better chance backing it up. No two Christians, no two religions, no two people that follow the same religion, will ever agree on everything "scripture" has to say. That's just a fact, because everyone that reads the bible interprets it in their own way, picks and chooses things to solidify their opinion and beliefs.

I just really wonder why religious people always ask questions like this. It reeks of insecurity and doubt, begging people to back up what you want to believe. Why not just believe it and forget what other people think?

And before you chastise me for posting, you asked the question begging for someone to say exactly what I just said.

It is called a belief for a reason. It's not called a fact for the very same reason. Just believe and stop trying to get others to share that belief.

Good Luck.

For me, it's partly intellectual exercise, and partly it's just fun to tie ClassyT in knots using her own words!

Oh for goodness sake, why can't you religious people just believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe the same thing?

Live and let live already! No way you're all ever going to agree so just let it go, don't give yourself an ulcer and just go on living your life the way you see fit, and believe what you want to believe even if others disagree. Why do you feel the need to have others verify and solidify what you believe unless you yourself have doubts?

This thread was going to fail from minute one. Back up your beliefs with scripture? Um..that's like asking a magician to back up his trick with actual magic. Actually, the magician would have a better chance backing it up. No two Christians, no two religions, no two people that follow the same religion, will ever agree on everything "scripture" has to say. That's just a fact, because everyone that reads the bible interprets it in their own way, picks and chooses things to solidify their opinion and beliefs.

I just really wonder why religious people always ask questions like this. It reeks of insecurity and doubt, begging people to back up what you want to believe. Why not just believe it and forget what other people think?

And before you chastise me for posting, you asked the question begging for someone to say exactly what I just said.

It is called a belief for a reason. It's not called a fact for the very same reason. Just believe and stop trying to get others to share that belief.

Good Luck.

[classyT]

Oh for goodness sake, why can't you religious people just believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe the same thing?

Live and let live already! No way you're all ever going to agree so just let it go, don't give yourself an ulcer and just go on living your life the way you see fit, and believe what you want to believe even if others disagree. Why do you feel the need to have others verify and solidify what you believe unless you yourself have doubts?

This thread was going to fail from minute one. Back up your beliefs with scripture? Um..that's like asking a magician to back up his trick with actual magic. Actually, the magician would have a better chance backing it up. No two Christians, no two religions, no two people that follow the same religion, will ever agree on everything "scripture" has to say. That's just a fact, because everyone that reads the bible interprets it in their own way, picks and chooses things to solidify their opinion and beliefs.

I just really wonder why religious people always ask questions like this. It reeks of insecurity and doubt, begging people to back up what you want to believe. Why not just believe it and forget what other people think?

And before you chastise me for posting, you asked the question begging for someone to say exactly what I just said.

It is called a belief for a reason. It's not called a fact for the very same reason. Just believe and stop trying to get others to share that belief.

Good Luck.

Why do people argue politics? I argue with Dwashbur and WG because it's fun. I never knew people believed some of the things they believe. I thought all Christians believed in different dispensations. I am much more informed when I discuss Christianity with others because I now understand why people believe and interpret the bible they way they do. Believe it or not, I am much more enlightened. I'm not insecure in my beliefs and I do not doubt mine either. I don't recall begging anyone but I did ask people to site scripture because I like to see where they got their beliefs. This is MY interest, it is MY passion and I like to discuss it. I don't get your issue? I don't consider this thread a failure in any way, sorry you do. If you want to let me have it over anything, it should be that the post would have been better put in the discussion board. So for that I do apologize.

[classyT]

Dave,

Please show me the post where I EVER said there was two ways of salvation! I never said that. NEVER EVER. You know this and you are just having fun. I said there was only ONE way anyone gets to the Father and that was by faith and through Jesus Christ. What I said was there were TWO gospels. The gospel of Grace, which is what Paul preached and the gospel of the Kingdom which is what John the Baptized preached. I'm not looking for the second coming... did you know that? I'm looking for Jesus to come back in the clouds not on earth. I'm looking for the rapture my blessed hope! After the rapture takes place, the good news will be, Repent, Jesus Christ is coming to rule and reign.. the exact thing John the Baptized preached. John the baptized did not preach death, burial, resurrection, Jesus is the last Adam, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise after you believe, Faith plus NOTHING, the finished work of Christ. He didn't because he didn't know a thing about it. ALL He knew was Jesus Christ was ushering in the Kingdom, so repent and believe. That is what is going to be a preached again!

[Wondergirl]

Oh for goodness sake, why can't you religious people just believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe the same thing?

No one is forcing anything.

Live and let live already! No way you're all ever going to agree

We have to agree?

so just let it go, don't give yourself an ulcer and just go on living your life the way you see fit

No one is getting an ulcer.

and believe what you want to believe even if others disagree.

We do.

Why do you feel the need to have others verify and solidify what you believe unless you yourself have doubts?

Huh? You've never played chess? Been in a debate? Your world is black and white with no shades of gray?

This thread was going to fail from minute one. Back up your beliefs with scripture? Um..that's like asking a magician to back up his trick with actual magic. Actually, the magician would have a better chance backing it up. No two Christians, no two religions, no two people that follow the same religion, will ever agree on everything "scripture" has to say. That's just a fact, because everyone that reads the bible interprets it in their own way, picks and chooses things to solidify their opinion and beliefs.

Yeah, we know that. That's why we're here discussing stuff. And learning from each other.

I just really wonder why religious people always ask questions like this. It reeks of insecurity and doubt, begging people to back up what you want to believe. Why not just believe it and forget what other people think?

You're the one who said this site is dead. So when three long-time members come to the site and eagerly and happily revive a long-dead board with a lively discussion about a subject that interests them, that's A Bad Thing?

And before you chastise me for posting, you asked the question begging for someone to say exactly what I just said.

No one has except for you.

It is called a belief for a reason. It's not called a fact for the very same reason. Just believe and stop trying to get others to share that belief.

We're not. This sort of discussion happens a lot in religion, especially in Christianity. And now you've made us go off topic. :-(

Good Luck.

We have something better than that. Plus, the angels are jumping up and down with glee.

[dwashbur]

Dave,

Please show me the post where I EVER said there was two ways of salvation! I never said that. NEVER EVER. You know this and you are just having fun. I said there was only ONE way anyone gets to the Father and that was by faith and through Jesus Christ. What I said was there were TWO gospels. The gospel of Grace, which is what Paul preached and the gospel of the Kingdom which is what John the Baptized preached. I'm not looking for the second coming... did you know that? I'm looking for Jesus to come back in the clouds not on earth. I'm looking for the rapture my blessed hope! After the rapture takes place, the good news will be, Repent, Jesus Christ is coming to rule and reign.. the exact thing John the Baptized preached. John the baptized did not preach death, burial, resurrection, Jesus is the last Adam, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise after you believe, Faith plus NOTHING, the finished work of Christ. He didn't because he didn't know a thing about it. ALL He knew was Jesus Christ was ushering in the Kingdom, so repent and believe. That is what is going to be a preached again!

" Paul even calls his gospel... "MY gospel". No! Not at ALL what John Preached. Did John preach the death, burial and resurrection? Wow if he did my bible is missing some pages? DUDE you are being deceived! John preached to repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand. He believe Jesus was there to take over with his Kingdom."

Two gospels = two ways of salvation. Galatians 1:8 says "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!" So if you really want to have two gospels, then everybody who preached - or will preach in some future scenario - this other gospel that you suggest for John etc. then Paul puts them under God's curse. Any way you try to slice it, if you have two gospels, then you have two ways of salvation. Because that's what the Gospel is. You are really digging yourself into a hole here.

[classyT]

Dave,


Exactly if anyone preaches a different gospel let him be cursed! That is for right now! You bet it is! But Dave, there is coming a time when the church is raptured, there will be no more GRACE period and the message will be look up, he is coming back. Listen if the church is raptured that means there is no more church, that period has ended, Paul's gospel of grace, will end. The millions of people who will be SAVED during the tribulation period will not be part of the bride. They will either be martyred... OR they are the people who will populate the earth when Jesus comes back. He will separate the sheep from the goats... the ones with faith waiting on his return go into the 1000 year rule and reign. That's what I believe. OK let me say this s l o w l y... I do not believe in two different ways of salvation. I believe the message changed from back in Moses day ( the Law), to our day, ( Grace) to the coming day ( the Messiah is coming back). ONE WAY TO GOD EVERRRRR - Jesus Christ. There is ONLY ONE WAY. Should I say that again? ONE WAY! The message will simply be different but you still come through Jesus Christ.

[dwashbur]

Yet again, tons of theological speculation based on an artificial grid that people lay over the Bible to pigeon-hole God and all His doings, with not a single Bible passage to back it up.

Welcome to dispensationalism.

If you would just once sit down and let the Bible speak for itself, you would realize how counter-biblical all this stuff really is. "That is for right now"? That's beyond ridiculous. I don't know any other word for it. This whole "GRACE period" business, "church age" and all that, are made-up ideas that have no actual basis in the text. I've already pointed out how your "present truth" phrase doesn't mean remotely what your theologians have told you it does. And when you add "That is for right now" to the Galatians passage, you are READING INTO the Bible, not learning from it. Try reading the whole thing from cover to cover, WITHOUT the dispensational glasses. You'll be surprised what you find.

And people in the BC days were saved by faith just like everybody else in every age, read Paul for pity's sake. He says that again and again and again. The only difference was level of knowledge about the object of their faith. But it works the same from the beginnings of human history to the present time and forever and ever Amen. FAITH THROUGH GRACE. There's no difference now than there was then, except we have more light than they did. That's it.

There is no "church age" or "age of grace." All of history is the Age Of Grace because that's always how God deals with people. There is no need to yank some out so others wind up with a different whatever. The whole thing is so convoluted and absurd I was amazed how long it took me to realize it. Clearly, it's taking you a bit longer.

Dave,


Exactly if anyone preaches a different gospel let him be cursed! That is for right now! You bet it is! But Dave, there is coming a time when the church is raptured, there will be no more GRACE period and the message will be look up, he is coming back. Listen if the church is raptured that means there is no more church, that period has ended, Paul's gospel of grace, will end. The millions of people who will be SAVED during the tribulation period will not be part of the bride. They will either be martyred... OR they are the people who will populate the earth when Jesus comes back. He will separate the sheep from the goats... the ones with faith waiting on his return go into the 1000 year rule and reign. That's what I believe. OK let me say this s l o w l y... I do not believe in two different ways of salvation. I believe the message changed from back in Moses day ( the Law), to our day, ( Grace) to the coming day ( the Messiah is coming back). ONE WAY TO GOD EVERRRRR - Jesus Christ. There is ONLY ONE WAY. Should I say that again? ONE WAY! The message will simply be different but you still come through Jesus Christ.