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    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #101

    Sep 13, 2016, 09:24 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I looked up what "rightly divided" means. I'd never heard that term so much emphasized until it was used here on this forum. It seems from my Internet research that one has to be in a certain dispensation in order to "rightly divide" the Word. (I guess Moses was out of luck and didn't qualify....) One citation from rightlydividing.org:

    Welcome to Adobe GoLive 6
    Part of the problem is that most dispensationalists worship the Bible more than they worship Jesus. There's even a word for it: bibliolatry. The Bible has stuff we don't understand. It has stuff that seems self-contradictory. It has stuff that makes us uncomfortable, like genocide. Some of us like to take that material head-on and try to sort it out. That's one of the reasons I switched from New Testament to Old Testament in grad school: there's a lot more challenge there. The anachronism "Dan" in Genesis 14. What does it tell us? Why, if Moses was the author, does it say Dan and not Laish?

    Some people don't want to deal with these questions, so they just play ostrich and say "I have faith! It's perfect! We just don't understand it! I have faith!" These people are living examples of Mark Twain's definition of faith.

    I trust the Bible with all its apparent flaws and issues. I trust it because I've dug into those hard questions, I've examined three and four cognate languages to try and sort out what some words mean, because there are lots of words in both Testaments that we simply don't know what they mean. Micah 6:8 - Do Justice, love mercy, and something-or-other walk with your God. We have no clue what that word means. "Humbly" is a best guess, because the word superficially resembles some possible weird form of the word "humble." But the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint (dazzle your friends with that $10 word) reads "be prepared to walk with your God." A far cry from our current English translations! This is what we're up against, and people who just close their eyes and scream "I have faith!" aren't helping.

    The Evangelical Theological Society doctrinal statement says "The Bible alone, and the Bible in its entirety, is the word of God written and is therefore inerrant in the autographs." I can still sign that. The key phrase is "in the autographs." We don't have them. We don't even have something close to them in time. We can't even figure out when some of them were written. I spent a good 10 years learning and practicing textual criticism of both Testaments, trying to make my contribution toward sorting out what the autographs actually said.

    Meanwhile, the Dispies (that's what we called them back in the day) sit in their ivory towers, oblivious to everyone else in Christendom, and say "I have faith!" I repeat: Mark Twain, tip your hat.
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    classyT Posts: 1,562, Reputation: 214
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    #102

    Sep 14, 2016, 05:32 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    We took a mini-vacation over the weekend. But really, there's no much to say, because there's nothing of substance there to respond to. It's all empty speculation with no scriptural backing at all. You really can't see how you pervert the Bible by tossing your theology in there first and wresting the Scriptures to fit your theology. That's more than a little backward, in case you hadn't noticed.

    And really, there's not much more we can talk about, and here's the reason:

    "I never knew people believed some of the things they believe. I thought all Christians believed in different dispensations."

    This is the most naïve statement I have ever seen from a seasoned Christian. Guess what? You are the minority. The vast majority of Christianity doesn't buy dispensationalism. That includes virtually all Protestant denominations, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, and a host of others. You know NOTHING about the global Christian church. Hence, you are horribly unqualified to try and teach anybody anything about the Church. Go get some education about Christianity outside that little bubble of isolation that you live in, and find out what's going on in the Christian world. Then we can discuss this.

    That one statement explains pretty much all of your narrow-mindedness. It's not so much narrow-mindedness as it is ignorance. Happily, the solution is easy: just learn about the rest of your Christian brethren and sistren.
    I'm just seeing this little jewel. Really? Well you have one thing correct, I am naïve. I had the audacity to think we were friends. My mistake. I don't think anyone has ever personally attacked me this badly. I'm blown away. I didn't deserve it. I was asking questions because I really wanted to know and I was honest about what I know and don't know. You can think I'm ignorant, narrow-minded, backward, horribly unqualified and in need of education. Trust me it doesn't compare to what I think of you right now. I suggest you learn to let the Holy Spirit lead you and love through you. You may have knowledge but that's about it. Whatever you think I am, I am not mean and nasty nor do I lack the ability to love my fellow Christians who think differently than I do. I call you out if I think you are way out there, but I don't personally attack you like this. You are over the top, Dave. I mean waaaay over the top. Who do you think you are? You need a reality check cause you ain't. Smh disappointing to the hilt.
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    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #103

    Sep 14, 2016, 09:10 PM
    I'm sorry if you were hurt. But I was blown away by the fact that you had no idea there were other views out there. I can't tell you how distressing that is, because you've been robbed. You haven't had an adequate chance to really evaluate different views and choose for yourself. You've had dispensationalism and nothing else.

    And truthfully, it doesn't surprise me because I know how dispensationalists work. They don't want you to hear any other views. They refuse to teach other views in their schools - I know this from experience - because supposedly it causes "confusion." How is knowledge a bad thing? But they are afraid of you having broader knowledge, because the fact is, over half the people I went to school with who were dispensationalists there, abandoned it in favor of other views once they got out of the dispensationalist bubble and learned just how flawed that system is.

    That's what I wish for you: a good, fair, even knowledge of ALL the various ideas and choices, so you can decide for yourself which (if any) is the most "biblical." I apologize if that sounded like an attack; it wasn't. I am just amazed and saddened that these people have sold you such a bill of goods. I want better for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    I'm just seeing this little jewel. Really? Well you have one thing correct, I am naïve. I had the audacity to think we were friends. My mistake. I don't think anyone has ever personally attacked me this badly. I'm blown away. I didn't deserve it. I was asking questions because I really wanted to know and I was honest about what I know and don't know. You can think I'm ignorant, narrow-minded, backward, horribly unqualified and in need of education. Trust me it doesn't compare to what I think of you right now. I suggest you learn to let the Holy Spirit lead you and love through you. You may have knowledge but that's about it. Whatever you think I am, I am not mean and nasty nor do I lack the ability to love my fellow Christians who think differently than I do. I call you out if I think you are way out there, but I don't personally attack you like this. You are over the top, Dave. I mean waaaay over the top. Who do you think you are? You need a reality check cause you ain't. Smh disappointing to the hilt.
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    classyT Posts: 1,562, Reputation: 214
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    #104

    Sep 15, 2016, 02:02 PM
    Dave.

    This is a quote from Carol in this thread... "I'd never heard of dispensationalism and the rapture until I saw them mentioned on this site years ago." I'm curious as to why you weren't blown away by her statement! Oh that's right, she agrees with you, never mind.

    I have asked you questions like how you reconcile Romans with the Lord's parable of the sheep and goats and I can't get you to tell me. If you are so darn upset I haven't been exposed to different views, why not answer my questions? I will tell you why... you aren't sad I haven't been exposed to other points of views, you would rather use your gift of language to tear down and put down, rather than just give an explanation because you CAN'T reconcile them. It's OK to say you can't but it is easier to put me down. So you opted for easy.

    That was NOT an apology, Dave. It was justification for being a rude and unkind. If that wasn't an attack, I'd hate to see one. What I would like to know is what you have that I don't? I mean it, if you are so concerned for me as you claim, explain in detail what you have that I don't. What has changing your view point about dispensation done for you that I am missing out on? What is it in lay man terms that you possess that I don't. How has changing your view point benefited you? Explain it slowly, you know how the ignorant are.

    I have said it before and I will say it again. When people don't agree with you, you put them down. You make fun of them and then act completely justified. There is NOTHING of the Lord Jesus in that. I'm always amazed at the hate you spew and that's all it boils down to is utter hatred. There is nothing Christ like in that but you think if you have right on your side, it's OK in Dave's world. Sigh... You have a lot of knowledge, I give you that. But wisdom? None. Give me wisdom any day.

    One last thought, "they" aren't the problem at all, YOU are. I read some of the stuff you put out there and I am so turned off I want to puke. If THAT is what being enlightened by your new view points have done for you, no thank YOU!
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #105

    Sep 15, 2016, 02:14 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    This is a quote from Carol in this thread... "I'd never heard of dispensationalism and the rapture until I saw them mentioned on this site years ago." I'm curious as to why you weren't blown away by her statement! Oh that's right, she agrees with you, never mind.
    Dave knows I am a Missouri-Synod Lutheran pastor's daughter. The LCMS has never, ever believed in and talked about dispensationalism. That's why I had never heard about it and had no clue what it is. And I have never met and talked with anyone from Catholic churches and any Protestant denomination who mentioned it. It apparently is a teaching that is part of the beliefs of a small Protestant (???) group. I don't even know what group that would be.
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #106

    Sep 15, 2016, 06:08 PM
    I missed that one, apparently. But also, I've been a Lutheran and I know that most of them simply reject dispensationalism.

    The main reason I haven't tried to answer your questions to date is because they tend to be departures from the topic at hand. I have mentioned that many times.

    And now, I'm really not comfortable talking advanced theology because I'm going to feel like I'm bringing a billy club to a pillow fight. You asked what I have? I have a range of knowledge such that I can dialogue with just about any Christian tradition, in their own jargon and on their own level. I can do that because I'm intimately familiar with their views and theological distinctions.

    I have never deliberately engaged in a "put down" with you. When I point out something erroneous, you seem to take it that way. I don't go after people unless I'm teasing. I go after viewpoints, because the goal is to determine what is the most consistently biblical. In this instance, I mentioned that you have a huge lack of knowledge, and now I understand why it's so difficult to dialogue with you and why we so often end up talking right past each other. I don't like that, I like being on even terms. All this time, I thought that even despite all my training etc. we were fairly close to even terms. Learning that we're not is most distressing.

    I'd love to help you with this, but there's no way to do such a thing in a forum like this. You keep asking me about Romans vs. Matthew 25; there is no answer that will fit on AMHD or FB or any other such forum, because those things are bound up, defined and expanded by a vast array of other passages and factors. I haven't answered because it's impossible to do it in a few words. I've presented some things based on Kingdom theology and some other approaches, and I always wondered why you didn't respond to those.

    Now I get it: much of the time I've been talking past you. I apologize for that, too. I wish I had known this a few years ago, because yes, it makes me feel like a bully. I don't like that feeling.

    I can make you one promise: from here forward I will do my best to, as Walter Martin used to say, "Get the hay down out of the loft onto the barn floor where the cows can get at it." (No, I'm not calling you a cow.) In other words, I'll do my best to avoid Scholarese* and stick to English. I'll do my best to help you understand the other views. If you stay dispensational, cool. But at least you'll be doing it from a standpoint of thorough knowledge.

    There is nothing shameful or "put down" about the word "ignorance." It means "lack of knowledge." Nothing more. It means someone doesn't know something. If they've never been taught it or exposed to it, then obviously they're not going to know it. Hence, they have ignorance on the subject. It's not a value judgment. It never has been, the word doesn't carry those connotations. It means "lacking knowledge." Part of my mission on Earth is to help people overcome that. Including you. I call you Sis because you're special to me. And I want to help you grow in knowledge. That's the bottom line.

    *Scholarese, n. A dialect that consists entirely of multiverbal circumlocutions ane polysyllabic sentence units.


    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Dave.

    This is a quote from Carol in this thread... "I'd never heard of dispensationalism and the rapture until I saw them mentioned on this site years ago." I'm curious as to why you weren't blown away by her statement! Oh that's right, she agrees with you, never mind.

    I have asked you questions like how you reconcile Romans with the Lord's parable of the sheep and goats and I can't get you to tell me. If you are so darn upset I haven't been exposed to different views, why not answer my questions? I will tell you why... you aren't sad I haven't been exposed to other points of views, you would rather use your gift of language to tear down and put down, rather than just give an explanation because you CAN'T reconcile them. It's OK to say you can't but it is easier to put me down. So you opted for easy.

    That was NOT an apology, Dave. It was justification for being a rude and unkind. If that wasn't an attack, I'd hate to see one. What I would like to know is what you have that I don't? I mean it, if you are so concerned for me as you claim, explain in detail what you have that I don't. What has changing your view point about dispensation done for you that I am missing out on? What is it in lay man terms that you possess that I don't. How has changing your view point benefited you? Explain it slowly, you know how the ignorant are.

    I have said it before and I will say it again. When people don't agree with you, you put them down. You make fun of them and then act completely justified. There is NOTHING of the Lord Jesus in that. I'm always amazed at the hate you spew and that's all it boils down to is utter hatred. There is nothing Christ like in that but you think if you have right on your side, it's OK in Dave's world. Sigh... You have a lot of knowledge, I give you that. But wisdom? None. Give me wisdom any day.

    One last thought, "they" aren't the problem at all, YOU are. I read some of the stuff you put out there and I am so turned off I want to puke. If THAT is what being enlightened by your new view points have done for you, no thank YOU!
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    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #107

    Sep 16, 2016, 11:46 AM
    This does make me curious, though; how on Earth did you miss the whole Left Behind lunacy? Or were you here before that happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Dave knows I am a Missouri-Synod Lutheran pastor's daughter. The LCMS has never, ever believed in and talked about dispensationalism. That's why I had never heard about it and had no clue what it is. And I have never met and talked with anyone from Catholic churches and any Protestant denomination who mentioned it. It apparently is a teaching that is part of the beliefs of a small Protestant (???) group. I don't even know what group that would be.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #108

    Sep 16, 2016, 12:07 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    This does make me curious, though; how on Earth did you miss the whole Left Behind lunacy? Or were you here before that happened?
    A friend challenged me to read it (and the rest of the series). I did -- read only the first book, but didn't understand some of it. I read it as fast as I could, choking it down. It's so badly written, total pulp fiction.
    ma0641's Avatar
    ma0641 Posts: 15,675, Reputation: 1012
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    #109

    Sep 16, 2016, 02:36 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    A friend challenged me to read it (and the rest of the series). I did -- read only the first book, but didn't understand some of it. I read it as fast as I could, choking it down. It's so badly written, total pulp fiction.
    Wow, I'm sitting here praying for "pre trib" rapture. No more Hillary or Don.
    Seeing how this thread has been used in a "did too - did not" scenario with someone apparently having all the right answers makes me wonder why they didn't run. Let's see, 1/144,000. Odds might not be too good! Hope the pilot on my next flight isn't raptured, at least not pre trib.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #110

    Sep 16, 2016, 02:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ma0641 View Post
    Wow, I'm sitting here praying for "pre trib" rapture. No more Hillary or Don.
    Seeing how this thread has been used in a "did too - did not" scenario with someone apparently having all the right answers makes me wonder why they didn't run. Let's see, 1/144,000. Odds might not be too good! Hope the pilot on my next flight isn't raptured, at least not pre trib.
    You won't be Left Behind?
    classyT's Avatar
    classyT Posts: 1,562, Reputation: 214
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    #111

    Sep 16, 2016, 04:36 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    I missed that one, apparently. But also, I've been a Lutheran and I know that most of them simply reject dispensationalism.

    The main reason I haven't tried to answer your questions to date is because they tend to be departures from the topic at hand. I have mentioned that many times.

    And now, I'm really not comfortable talking advanced theology because I'm going to feel like I'm bringing a billy club to a pillow fight. You asked what I have? I have a range of knowledge such that I can dialogue with just about any Christian tradition, in their own jargon and on their own level. I can do that because I'm intimately familiar with their views and theological distinctions.

    I have never deliberately engaged in a "put down" with you. When I point out something erroneous, you seem to take it that way. I don't go after people unless I'm teasing. I go after viewpoints, because the goal is to determine what is the most consistently biblical. In this instance, I mentioned that you have a huge lack of knowledge, and now I understand why it's so difficult to dialogue with you and why we so often end up talking right past each other. I don't like that, I like being on even terms. All this time, I thought that even despite all my training etc. we were fairly close to even terms. Learning that we're not is most distressing.

    I'd love to help you with this, but there's no way to do such a thing in a forum like this. You keep asking me about Romans vs. Matthew 25; there is no answer that will fit on AMHD or FB or any other such forum, because those things are bound up, defined and expanded by a vast array of other passages and factors. I haven't answered because it's impossible to do it in a few words. I've presented some things based on Kingdom theology and some other approaches, and I always wondered why you didn't respond to those.

    Now I get it: much of the time I've been talking past you. I apologize for that, too. I wish I had known this a few years ago, because yes, it makes me feel like a bully. I don't like that feeling.

    I can make you one promise: from here forward I will do my best to, as Walter Martin used to say, "Get the hay down out of the loft onto the barn floor where the cows can get at it." (No, I'm not calling you a cow.) In other words, I'll do my best to avoid Scholarese* and stick to English. I'll do my best to help you understand the other views. If you stay dispensational, cool. But at least you'll be doing it from a standpoint of thorough knowledge.

    There is nothing shameful or "put down" about the word "ignorance." It means "lack of knowledge." Nothing more. It means someone doesn't know something. If they've never been taught it or exposed to it, then obviously they're not going to know it. Hence, they have ignorance on the subject. It's not a value judgment. It never has been, the word doesn't carry those connotations. It means "lacking knowledge." Part of my mission on Earth is to help people overcome that. Including you. I call you Sis because you're special to me. And I want to help you grow in knowledge. That's the bottom line.

    *Scholarese, n. A dialect that consists entirely of multiverbal circumlocutions ane polysyllabic sentence units.


    You are a condescending JackA$$ ! Your excuses for not answering my question are becoming downright embarrassing. You can't answer it, Dave. It's NOT too much for this site, it's too much for YOU. Period.

    Hey if it makes you feel superior to think you talk passed me... GO FOR IT DUDE! That comment made me laugh and laugh. You WISH!
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    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #112

    Sep 16, 2016, 09:38 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    You are a condescending JackA$$ ! Your excuses for not answering my question are becoming downright embarrassing. You can't answer it, Dave. It's NOT too much for this site, it's too much for YOU. Period.

    Hey if it makes you feel superior to think you talk passed me... GO FOR IT DUDE! That comment made me laugh and laugh. You WISH!
    As WG already said, if you want to start a new thread with that question, I'll see what I can do.

    Incidentally, another thing I learned by dumping dispensationalism is, this stuff is just not that important I read the end of the book. We win. Nothing in eschatology carries enough significance to divide Christians, yet we do it all the time. I watched a friend of mine get railroaded out of his degree because he said that pre-tribs were way behind in their research and had a lot of catching up to do. That's ALL he said, and they denied him his degree because he "went post-trib" (direct quote from the dean of students). I myself lost one of my favorite teaching jobs because I couldn't say with absolute certainty that I was pre-trib. It goes on and on. The thing is, dispensationalists are the only ones who do this. They accuse everyone else of being divisive, but they are the ones who kick people out for not holding to every little point.

    They also won't let their students learn other systems. When I tried to look at a couple when in college, I was "strongly encouraged" not to, because it would cause "confusion." Translation: their material is so tenuously constructed, as quickly as people get a solid handle on something else, they take it. So the dispensational answer is to keep their people in the dark, give them ONLY what "we" want them to have, and subtly suggest that anything else is of the devil (another direct quote).

    This is not stuff of my construction. I just reports 'em. 40 years ago I was you. I had it all sorted out. Thank God he smacked me across the forehead and let me know just how much I didn't know. I've had the time of my life learning new things about the Lord every day since. One of the main things I've learned: I hate theology. Let the Word speak for itself. We westerners love to pigeon-hole everything, including God. That's why I don't embrace any one theological "system." I can find various merits in all of them. But I had to know what they were and how they worked before I could do that. It's still going on and I don't have a fraction of the answers. But I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to keep what I have entrusted to him, even to the end of the world (my own translation). That's the beginning and end for me.
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    ma0641 Posts: 15,675, Reputation: 1012
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    #113

    Sep 17, 2016, 07:15 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    As WG already said, if you want to start a new thread with that question, I'll see what I can do.

    Incidentally, another thing I learned by dumping dispensationalism is, this stuff is just not that important I read the end of the book. We win. Nothing in eschatology carries enough significance to divide Christians, yet we do it all the time. I watched a friend of mine get railroaded out of his degree because he said that pre-tribs were way behind in their research and had a lot of catching up to do. That's ALL he said, and they denied him his degree because he "went post-trib" (direct quote from the dean of students). I myself lost one of my favorite teaching jobs because I couldn't say with absolute certainty that I was pre-trib. It goes on and on. The thing is, dispensationalists are the only ones who do this. They accuse everyone else of being divisive, but they are the ones who kick people out for not holding to every little point.

    They also won't let their students learn other systems. When I tried to look at a couple when in college, I was "strongly encouraged" not to, because it would cause "confusion." Translation: their material is so tenuously constructed, as quickly as people get a solid handle on something else, they take it. So the dispensational answer is to keep their people in the dark, give them ONLY what "we" want them to have, and subtly suggest that anything else is of the devil (another direct quote).

    This is not stuff of my construction. I just reports 'em. 40 years ago I was you. I had it all sorted out. Thank God he smacked me across the forehead and let me know just how much I didn't know. I've had the time of my life learning new things about the Lord every day since. One of the main things I've learned: I hate theology. Let the Word speak for itself. We westerners love to pigeon-hole everything, including God. That's why I don't embrace any one theological "system." I can find various merits in all of them. But I had to know what they were and how they worked before I could do that. It's still going on and I don't have a fraction of the answers. But I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to keep what I have entrusted to him, even to the end of the world (my own translation). That's the beginning and end for me.
    Amen, well phrased. Too many people "pigeon hole", to use your term, I'm Catholic, Anglican, Methodist etc. instead of Christian. You accept Christ as saving us, do the best you can, the world will end and hopefully we will be there with Him. Of course, this is a Christian view. An all loving God will show mercy to non Christians, I would like to believe , if I get to Heaven, to be sharing a meal with a Buddhist, Navaho Indian, Muslim, Druid, prehistoric man- Wow, heaven better be big! One thing we also need to remember is that few people ever left the village where they were raised. There were no Christians then, there were Jews and Gentiles. To think that people existed in other continents was obscure except for Egypt and Asia Minor. Yes, Peter and Paul made it to Rome, but the whole world to most people was probably 50 miles by 50 miles.
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    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #114

    Sep 17, 2016, 09:47 AM
    Incidentally, rather than having to resort to the dollar signs, you might try playing with the word a little to make it come out "jay sack." It's more euphemistic, but it gets the point across in an ear-catching way.

    That's compliments of my dad, who had an incredible way with words. Feel free to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    You are a condescending JackA$$ ! Your excuses for not answering my question are becoming downright embarrassing. You can't answer it, Dave. It's NOT too much for this site, it's too much for YOU. Period.

    Hey if it makes you feel superior to think you talk passed me... GO FOR IT DUDE! That comment made me laugh and laugh. You WISH!

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