[CravenMorhead]

Religion is a choice,

So is suicide.

--

A point about Judaism, and all it's child religions (Christianity, LDS, Islam, etc.): Man cannot know God's mind. Which is to say that NO ONE, Not Pope Francis, or Moses, Or Crazy Bill down the street with the sign that says the end is Neigh, can say, "God said kill heathens", or "God didn't make him gay". No man can speak for God. No woman either. Consider that God created all this stuff. Mind blown already. Consider what he needed to know and do to bring the universe and all it's wonders into existence. From stars, to planets, to nebula, to bacteria, mice, dinosaurs, and you and me. Our smartest people are like bacteria to God. It is Pride and Arrogance to sit here and say, "God didn't make bruce Jenner Trans sexual." Inexcusable.

What we can gather from the bible is that God created sin to test us and allow us to grow as righteous people. All the evil and destruction in the world is there so that the faithful can confront it and make the world better. Considering that Bruce Jenner was part of his plan and was put forth to test your tolerance and your love. To inspire christianity as a whole to reconsider it's bigotry and hate. Queers could be here to help you grow as a person and to accept everyone as they are. If I am not mistaken this is the main thrust of most holy books.

I like how Bill said it best: "Be excellent to each other."

[ScottGem]

Considering that Bruce Jenner was part of his plan and was put forth to test your tolerance and your love. To inspire christianity as a whole to reconsider it's bigotry and hate. Queers could be here to help you grow as a person and to accept everyone as they are.

Applause Applause Applause!!

Very well said. In fact, so well said, I can't and won't add anything more.

[paraclete]

So is suicide.

--

A point about Judaism, and all it's child religions (Christianity, LDS, Islam, etc.): Man cannot know God's mind. Which is to say that NO ONE, Not Pope Francis, or Moses, Or Crazy Bill down the street with the sign that says the end is Neigh, can say, "God said kill heathens", or "God didn't make him gay". No man can speak for God. No woman either. Consider that God created all this stuff. Mind blown already. Consider what he needed to know and do to bring the universe and all it's wonders into existence. From stars, to planets, to nebula, to bacteria, mice, dinosaurs, and you and me. Our smartest people are like bacteria to God. It is Pride and Arrogance to sit here and say, "God didn't make bruce Jenner Trans sexual." Inexcusable.

What we can gather from the bible is that God created sin to test us and allow us to grow as righteous people. All the evil and destruction in the world is there so that the faithful can confront it and make the world better. Considering that Bruce Jenner was part of his plan and was put forth to test your tolerance and your love. To inspire christianity as a whole to reconsider it's bigotry and hate. Queers could be here to help you grow as a person and to accept everyone as they are. If I am not mistaken this is the main thrust of most holy books.

I like how Bill said it best: "Be excellent to each other."

God is faithful to His Word, he is not in two minds. Every abomination we have on this Earth, every degeneracy, is the result of man wanting to be like God and deciding his own rules. We are still trying to build that stairway to heaven paving it with good intentions, we have some basic rules we still haven't learned to live within the boundries of, and you want to consider LGBT as another lesson. We can't even agree on following the first rule, until we succeed in getting that one right I cannot see advance in other areas, and please remember this is why we have Jesus, because God knows we are not going to get it right on our own

[ScottGem]

God is faithful to His Word, he is not in two minds. Every abomination we have on this Earth, every degeneracy, is the result of man wanting to be like God and deciding his own rules. We are still trying to build that stairway to heaven paving it with good intentions, we have some basic rules we still haven't learned to live within the boundries of, and you want to consider LGBT as another lesson. We can't even agree on following the first rule, until we succeed in getting that one right I cannot see advance in other areas, and please remember this is why we have Jesus, because God knows we are not going to get it right on our own

This is why I'm a Deist. If the God you describe wants us to "get it right" and gave us Jesus to help, then why did he allow us the ability to get it wrong in the first place? The logic of that escapes me. And yes I understand this is not an issue of logic but faith. Sorry I don't do things on faith.

[talaniman]

Perhaps you could tell us how Jesus dealt with gay people and maybe we can see your point Clete.

[CravenMorhead]

Please tell me you're not justifying homophobia because Christians are still Murdering their fellow man? I honestly hope you're saying that we should stone queers because Christians haven't grown enough towards the divine because it is certainly sounding like you're saying, "Well if humanity was better at the ten commandments then we could accept those people with non-standard sexual orientation, but we haven't so lets pray them straight."

Chasing the divine isn't a check list. You don't sequentially go through the commandments, the 10 big ones and others in the Torah and New Testament, and say, "well I haven't perfected the taking god's name in vain so I am not going to worry about perfecting the adultery or murder thing." That type of thinking is what is keep a lot of the christian churches and faiths archaic.

God is faithful to His Word, he is not in two minds. Every abomination we have on this Earth, every degeneracy, is the result of man wanting to be like God and deciding his own rules. We are still trying to build that stairway to heaven paving it with good intentions, we have some basic rules we still haven't learned to live within the boundries of, and you want to consider LGBT as another lesson. We can't even agree on following the first rule, until we succeed in getting that one right I cannot see advance in other areas, and please remember this is why we have Jesus, because God knows we are not going to get it right on our own

The problem is that we don't have his word. In the Judeo-Christian world you don't have a reliable word of god. The old testament, i.e. the Torah, Is a book that was edited and fluid until the 5th century BCE ish. It wasn't given to the Jews by God, it isn't the word of God. The new testament wasn't cannonized until the third or fourth century CE, at least 300 years after Christ died. During that time it was passed through the church from person to person. Even afterwards it has been translated so many times that it can't even be considered the gospels. As "unbiased" as each translator was, or claimed to be, they're interpreting what was said and putting it into another language. The subtleties of one language don't translate well into another. Just ask Fr_chuck about that one.

The closest thing to the real word of God we have is the Quran. When the angel came down and said, "Hey Grab a pen I am about to read the word of god to you from my book up here." Mohammed wrote it down. I believe the arabic texts of the Quran are faithful, or at least as faithful as they can be after 1400 years. IT isn't as bad as the bible or torah but it isn't perfect. You have then the book of Mormon, but those are a little suspect.

We don't have the word of god. There is no way to make any claims about the mind of god or the intentions of god. He could be of two minds. He could be helping us as a world grow. Right now it is a tool to justify your bigotry. I hate using this but what would Jesus say? "Love thy Neighbor!" you said, "He likes getting his bum diddled by other men. Leviticus says that's not cool so I hate him because he is an abomination." He replys, "God is the only one that could judge them, it isn't your place. Just love your neighbor."

[magprob]

Personally, I think Government is much more dangerous than religion. At least I do know, for certain, that my God, did not create ISIS.

[ScottGem]

At least I do know, for certain, that my God, did not create ISIS.

And Government did? Clearly your god is not Allah, because ISIS is a religious organization.

[Wondergirl]

And Government did? Clearly your god is not Allah, because ISIS is a religious organization.

Humans created ISIS. Allah or God had nothing to do with it, meaning how humans decided to interpret their god's words.

[talaniman]

Clearly ISIS is an example of dangerous religion, and humans using the name of God to justify BAD behavior.

[magprob]

Oh, you must mot have heard.

And Government did? Clearly your god is not Allah, because ISIS is a religious organization.

[talaniman]

If there is but ONE God, then changing the name means NOTHING.

[NeedKarma]

Humans created ISIS.

This seems to be the default answer to anything that appears negative concerning religion. It goes like this:
<bad thing happens> --> people have free will, it has nothing to do with god
<good thing happens> --> "Praise (insert your god here)!"

No one sees anything wrong here?

[ScottGem]

No one sees anything wrong here?

Religious beliefs are not rational, they are based on faith, not established fact or logic.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down the power of faith. it is very strong and if having that faith helps then I'm all for it. But one needs to recognize that it is based on faith.

[paraclete]

This seems to be the default answer to anything that appears negative concerning religion. It goes like this:
<bad thing happens> --> people have free will, it has nothing to do with god
<good thing happens> --> "Praise (insert your god here)!"

No one sees anything wrong here?

Karma you have a negative opinion because of the reports you have heard but you have not experienced God otherwise you would not conduct your campaign against belief but as you say people have free will, even the most religious of us get it wrong sometimes. Not everything in this world has a rational explanation

[NeedKarma]

I don't have a negative opinion, I have the default opinion. No one is religious unless they are taught to be.
And how does one "experience" god?

[talaniman]

Forget it NK, Clete doesn't even know what Jesus said about gay people...

[Wondergirl]

Forget it NK, Clete doesn't even know what Jesus said about gay people...

Actually, He didn't say anything about them.

[CravenMorhead]

Actually, He didn't say anything about them.

Except the global,. gee wouldn't it be nice if you all were nice to each other?

[Fr_Chuck]

If there is but ONE God, then changing the name means NOTHING.

Why would one think there is only one god. (not God) even in the Bible, it tells us not to have other gods before the "One True God".

If you take the stories in the old Testament, and if you believe they are true, not just stories, we see Moses before the King of Egypt and the King's magicians were able to do some of the things Moses did. Where did their power come from?

We see warnings of witchcraft and examples of people who spoke with spirits in he Bible.

I don't have a negative opinion, I have the default opinion. No one is religious unless they are taught to be.
And how does one "experience" god?

I will disagree, everyone is religious, unless because of their own beliefs in themselves and man's education, they attempt to become the god.

Even in remote places with tribes that have no outside contact, they develop a religion based on something, the sun, or moon, or the earth. Religion is a basic human instinct to know that there is more to life than just what is seen.

Even those that do not believe they have a god, do, they in fact become their own god, because that is where their faith lies.

Forget it NK, Clete doesn't even know what Jesus said about gay people...

Jesus really did not say much about gays, since within the Jewish population at the time, it was not a really big issue, He did not talk about cars, or cell phones or internet either.

He did visit sinners but he never accepted their sin. In fact, when they (if they) repented, he told them to go and sin no more.

Peoples issues today, they want the sin accepted. Jesus never said, wow, you can be forgiven without repenting. People do not want to repent, they want to be saved with Jesus changing, not them.