[Phoenix_trouble]

We live in a condo unit which is on the 19th floor of a high rise. For a week now we have noticed all the water sources, 2 sinks and a shower, are having inconsistent to no hot water. Sometimes when it starts to warm it will run for a bit and then turn ice cold.
We do not have a water heater. The building is provided with hot water from the city that is warmed by steam. According to our association book, the water is evenly heated and then with industrial pumps delivered to the units "on demand" immediately.
Our experience has been more like 5-15 minutes of running on high before we get any warm or hot response.
The kitchen sink and shower work off a single handle, while the sink in the bathroom uses two separate handles. All faucets are having the same issue.
No one else in the building, according to management, have complained. Building management have said this is something at our end because it is isolated, but due to the type of plumbing, there is little info out there to ask educated questions or put them to task.
We were told that ALL the water entering our unit comes through the shower balancing cartridge first and changing it out would resolve the issue. They changed it, but that did not resolve anything.
At the time we felt this was ridiculous since it then goes through the meter located further down the line. Also how would the shower then not impact the heat/cold while someone is using it at another source elsewhere in the unit at the same time?
Question: Any direction on what could cause this? Where can one read up on it to determine if I’m being fed a line of BS or go into the conversation with some knowledge about the functionality of how these things general work in a large building.
Thank you for any help!

[hkstroud]

I'm being fed a line of BS

Yes.

Water, not hot water, is provided to the building by the city. Part of that water is used for cold water purposes. Part of the water is fed to a boiler or some heating device and heated for hot water purposes. The hot water is piped to each unit. Because some units are so far from the boiler and the water could sit in the pipes for some time and cool, the unused hot water must be circulated back to the boiler. If the hot water were not being continuously circulated, you would have to empty all the cooled water from the pipe before you got any hot water. At 19 stories that would mean tens if not hundreds of gallons.
As long as the water is being circulated you should have instant hot water.

shower balancing cartridge.

Yes, you have or should have a pressure balancing valve in the tub/shower. It is a pressure balancing valve, not a temperature balancing valve. The water pressure of the cold and hot lines is normally the same. Therefore, the mixture of hot and cold and the temperature is consistent. Should there be a sudden drop in pressure in either line, there would the sudden and dramatic change in temperature. Let's say that I lived next door to you. You are in the shower. I come home and open all the cold water faucets and flush all my toilets.
You would get burned because I suddenly began using a lot of cold water. To prevent that, the pressure balancing valve would automatically adjust by reducing the amount of hot water passing through you shower. The pressure balancing valve should not be confused by the temperature limiting device that is also built into your shower valve.

As far as I know, no residential valve, other than a shower valve, incorporates pressure balancing device. Even if your sink and lavatory valve had such device, they would not all go bad at the same time.


I certainly am not a commercial plumber. Most likely there are many hot water lines leaving the boiler. The boiler would heat the water to an extreme temperature, probably almost to the point of boiling. This very hot water would then be mixed with cold water by a temperature balancing valve to bring it back down to a usable temperature. Its cheaper that way. That temperature balancing valve could be at the boiler or could be somewhere else, like on each floor, or the building could be sectioned off into different vertical sections. Most likely there is a problem with a temperature balancing valve somewhere (not in your unit). It could also be a defective circulation pump somewhere.

Remember the person you are talking to doesn't know any more about the system than you do. To make the statement that all of your hot water goes through the shower balancing valve is proof of that fact.

The fact that no one else has complained is of no consequence. Someone has to be the first.

My position would be; I insist that you contact the building engineer and have him locate and fix the problem. It is your problem. You either fix it or I will open a hot water faucet and let it run continuously, so that I will have hot water when I need it.

Good luck.

[massplumber2008]

Remember the person you are talking to doesn't know any more about the system than you do. To make the statement that all of your hot water goes through the shower balancing valve is proof of that fact.

YUP!

The fact that no one else has complained is of no consequence. Someone has to be the first.

For sure!

My position would be; I insist that you contact the building engineer and have him locate and fix the problem. It is your problem. You either fix it or I will open a hot water faucet and let it run continuously, so that I will have hot water when I need it.

One of the funnier things I have read in a long time...LOL!! Phoenix_trouble would never actually state this out loud (I hope), but we couldn't blame him/her if they decided to go this route if management doesn't work with them, for sure!

Finally, as Hkstroud suggested, there is a required recirculating loop system that will assure that all units get hot water quickly in all high-rise buildings, so I'm betting it is an issue close by (your unit, neighbor's unit, washing machine valves, tub/shower valves, etc.). If this is the case, I would suggest that you purchase a cheap thermometer ($8.00 at home depot) and take temperature readings at each fixture for 10 minutes each in 1 minute increments and then record the data and report back here first if you like... we'll see what we think. Does that sound reasonable?

Back to you...

Mark

[Mike45plus]

Phoenix,
Tracing and repairing these type of cross flows can be difficult in high rise buildings, however, if it is only occurring in your apartment, the source of the cold water migration may be in your home, or, in a neighboring apartment ( adjacent, above, or below ).
As massplumber has pointed out, any appliance, fixture, or fitting that is connected to both the hot & cold water has the potential to create crossover flow. The most likely sources are single handle tub / shower valves, especially those valves with a positive shut off device connected to the fixed, or hand held shower head. Some tub / shower valves are merely thermostatic control devices that rely on a shut off valve at each outlet.
Washing machine solenoid valves can cause cross flow, as can a janitors sink, or mop basin faucet. Counterfeit replacement parts for pressure balanced tub / shower valves can also cause cross over flow; anti - scald, pressure balanced cartridges / spools are precisely designed & manufactured for optimum performance, and, many of these devices have built in check valves / stops - OEM replacement parts are always more reliable.
I would start this diagnostic process with polling your neighbors to see if they are having similar issues, or have had any repair work done recently, and continue the process by identifying all possible contributors... if you use an orderly and controlled process of elimination, you will find the cause. Most high rise residences have an on site maintenance staff, or janitor - these people can be a wealth of information.............

[caibuadday]

Others don't complaint does not mean there is no problem. The problem you mentioned may cause by the hot water mixing valve malfunction, steam regulator malfunction or wrong size / type , not enough steam. When this type of hot water system is working properly you get continuous hot water instantly, and enough for everyone to use at the same time... Ask them what is the supply temp before it enter your condo, before your own main mixing valve . Are you responsible for inside your unit or behind the wall too ? You have Main water lines, for hot / cold ? Did the try bypassing the balance cartridge , shut off the cold side ?