[tomder55]

smoke and mirrors .Economists manipulate the numbers . All the proof you need is unemployment rates that don't take into account those who have stopped looking for work ;and inflation rates that don't take into account consumer goods .

[smoothy]

Clete... I live in one of the areas that are doing far better than most economically... and nobody here would think anything has improved in the last year. In fact everything has actually gotten a progressively worse. Want the best indicators of how the economy is doing, talk to a restaurant owner, people tend to eat out less when things aren't going well for them and the worse they get the less often they eat out.

And as was pointed out... they manipulate numbers, mumble some useless figures then, look out the window and shout, "OH LOOK, SQUIRREL."

[tomder55]

I live in one of the areas that are doing far better than most economically

Yup ;the DC area with all the gvt jobs to be had.

[talaniman]

Walmarts and Target don't seem to be going broke. That's all the proof I need.

[tomder55]

Walmarts and Target don't seem to be going broke. That's all the proof I need.

That's because they provide products people want at prices people are willing to pay.

[smoothy]

And being Walmart and Target are kings in the discount field... their numbers will go up when the more affluent people start shopping there when they can no longer afford the upscale stores they used to shop at.

[paraclete]

Clete... I live in one of the areas that are doing far better than most economically... and nobody here would think anything has improved in the last year. In fact everything has actually gotten a progressively worse. Want the best indicators of how the economy is doing, talk to a restaurant owner, people tend to eat out less when things aren't going well for them and the worse they get the less often they eat out.

And as was pointed out... they manipulate numbers, mumble some useless figures then, look out the window and shout, "OH LOOK, SQUIRREL."

It is probable in your area nothing much has changed smoothy either way, but you can't have over 4% growth in a quarter without someone being advantaged and the overall growth figures for your economy over the last two years have seen it ticking along at reasonable, not spectacular level. Someone thought you would get a high bounce coming out of the GFC and it didn't happen, and so you have adopted a hangdog attitude about the economy. I remember when it used to like that here, way back in the 90's, when we went through structural adjustment. Look, I know your participation rate isn't as high as you would like it, but in reality it isn't that good anywhere. I hear rhetorical stories of towns with low unemployment but they are rare outside the mining industry

BBC News - US economy grows by 4% as Fed cuts stimulus

we don't yell "Look SQUIRREL" here, and I expect your numbers can be taken at face value, even if they are used improperly in your media.

The best thing that can happen for all of us is if the Fed stops quantative easing as it is distrorting values

[smoothy]

I've seen 10 restaurants fail and close their doors within 3 blocks of my office in the last year alone several of those have been there for many years... that usually took almost 10 years for that many to close up over the last 20 years I've worked there.

And As I said...thats in an area thats not as hard hit as most. I have not doubt its far, far worse in most of the country. I think the BBC is basing that number on fuzzy logic and suspect sources. I haven't heard that number ANYWHERE here.

[paraclete]

Restaurants come and go, food preference changes and after all we all look for new experiences, but I get it, people don't have as much money as they used to and high earners have had an extra tax burden, but employment in your economy is slowly growing, whether it is actually keeping pace is another issue.

You haven't heard that number because your media is biased, when have you heard media publish good news? I was just listening to one of your own academics on PBS saying that things are going along OK, there are positives and would have been nice if it happened years earlier and I agree you should be focusing on the positives, not the aspirations. What you are saying is you aren't achieving your aspirations, well welcome to the club, things are though all over

[tomder55]

we can measure the recovery against recoveries of the past . This is one of the worst because of the government interventions that predictably failed to achieve their desired results. But that's ok . We know that libs judge on intentions and not results.

[paraclete]

I think everyone does that Tom, it is all aspirational and depends on who can talk up the best scenario but you know as well as I do the slow recovery is down to those job creators

[talaniman]

This recovery is the worst simply because the people who stole the money are keeping it, and are still stealing even more money.

[paraclete]

And is that not ever so unless it is taken from them

[tomder55]

who "stole " the money ?

[talaniman]

Wall Street banks in collusion with the ratings agency. Started with the repeal of Glass Steagall, and a lot of greedy, underhanded behavior followed. Add to that the moving of jobs, and money overseas, you have millions of former middle class families ROBBED, who lost everything.

The New World Order which is just a cover for oligarchy.

[paraclete]

The new world order is Bush era propaganda

[talaniman]

It's not propaganda when you eliminate the traditional middle class industrial jobs with low wage part time service ones. That's a reality. It requires adjustments and a very rocky transition. There is no nation that can thrive and survive without a vibrant growing middle class Clete, not even yours, since all nations have a consumer driven economy, no matter the labels they put on them.

[smoothy]

The near collapse of the middle class is the direct result of Obamanomics. After all, how many times has he told business they didn't creat that wealth, they didn't creat those jobs. So tis Obamas fault, if he wants to clain responsibility for creating those jobs and wealth, then he OWNS the responsibility when they go away too.

[talaniman]

The timeline of your logic is flawed. The American industrial base has been running overseas for more than 30 years. Corporations have been on welfare longer, and it's gotten worse. Whole towns have been destroyed and that's before Obama. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY before.

You can't be that young.

[smoothy]

So you like Obama are going to try to blame this all on Bush? After al what happened under Clinton Was Bush's fault. Everything that happened under Bush was Bush's fault, everything that happened under Obama is still Bush's fault.