[bethesdalily]

My family and I attend an evangelical church whose pastor is teaching the Scriptures in all truth. However, one of the women on the praise team is introducing doctrinally-unsound music and worship styles into our hour-long times of worship. Please understand that this is not about musical styles--I myself do prefer gentler worship, but I've been in rock-oriented church worship services and would never accuse them of teaching unsound doctrine. This woman's "worship"-leading style is being directly influenced by what is called the International House of Prayer (IHOP). This is a known cult that is sweeping through our area--many of its members exert abusive control, speak according to Buddhist rather than Christian teachings, etc. Well, this woman's chanting, un-Biblical song choices, etc. make me and my family very uncomfortable, but when we spoke to the pastor, he failed to see anything wrong. He says that he knows this woman and that she has a heart for God. I don't doubt that--I believe she is a born-again Christian who has been led astray by a musical/teaching style/movement that really does appear deceptively good. Now, your initial reaction is likely that my family and I should simply leave the church--but it's more complicated than that. For one thing, we're charismatic, and teachings on the continued gifts of the Holy Spirit are very important to us; however, most of the charismatic churches in our area are beginning to follow IHOP's teachings. Also, there are some members of my family who appreciate the preaching at our present church and don't want to leave--and it's very important to us that we worship together. I know someone else who doesn't want to offend the Body of Christ, and who feels that leaving would do more harm than good, especially since we really have nowhere else to go. Still others just don't want to change, since finding a church can be exhausting. I would leave myself, despite all these considerations, but my younger sister is already refusing to attend any church at all, and it's breaking my parents' hearts. I don't want them to feel that I'm following in her footsteps. Then, too--if you'll pardon EVEN MORE complexities!--I've been known to be a bit of a naysayer when it came to other churches because I either disagreed with their teachings or because many of the members were overtly shunning and condescending toward me. So, I can't rock the boat without incurring much heartache and wrath. Does anyone have any suggestions? What should I do personally, what should I encourage my family to do, and how do I approach the church itself--whether I leave or continue attending? This has gotten so bad that I find myself dreading church every week, and no Christian should dread church.

[Wondergirl]

There's chanting and even dancing to the glory of God in the Bible. I'm not sure what you're objecting to. Will do some research and hope to hear back from you.

Could you name some of the doctrinally unsound songs? What are the words in the chanting? (I did research this a bit, so am wondering if she is following IHOP--or is preaching a different Gospel.)

[bethesdalily]

All right, let's see if I can both reply coherently and write in such a way as to be able to post... I'm using technology that isn't always that compatible with threads like these. Yes, there is chanting and especially dancing before the Lord in Scripture--I believe that, especially with regards to dancing. I've been blessed by that style of worship for over ten years. The problem I have with IHOP is a little difficult to pinpoint in any concise way, but I have read numerous posts from former members in which some of their prayer methods are identified as being Buddist in origin. Also, there's the matter of unbiblical use of the gift of prophecy. Please don't misunderstand--I believe that the gift of prophecy, like those of tongues and healing, are of the Lord and for the church today, and I wholeheartedly believe that people are often given power to exercise that gift in the Holy Spirit. My problem with IHOP arises from the fact that they are "training" prophets to employ a gift in their own human strength that only the Holy Spirit can give; also, many former members have seen that most of the prophecies given by this organization and its members turn out to be false--they predict an earthquake or a revival or a natural phenomenon in a given city or state for a certain year, and none of that prophecy is fulfilled. Former members who have completed IHOP's internship program say that IHOP enforced obligatory fasts even to the point of making some people desperately ill, forbidding them from leaving meetings, etc. They have their own interpretations of many common Scriptures, and several of these fall outside of historical Christianity. Let me know if you need specific links, and I'll be happy to provide them. All of this strikes me as profoundly distorting the truths of the Gospel.
Now, my goal here isn't really to insight a discussion about IHOP. I am on this site because I'm sincerely seeking advice and hope to help others in the future, once I get to know the site's policies and culture a little better. I write all of the above only by way of explanation. How do I know this woman is following IHOP's teachings? Because I've looked up some of the songs she leads us in and found that many of them were written by some of IHOP's most noted singers. The words seem spiritual: "Take me a little higher, / Lead me a little closer. / ... Your love is so much sweeter / Than anything I've tasted..." But these new songs employ shaky doctrines at best, rely on experience to the exclusion of Scripture, and fail to mention either the name of God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit or to employ any Christ-centered theology. Again, I'm not someone who insists on singing only hymns--I've been blessed by everything from, yes, hymns, to worship choruses to more modern anthems like "Revelation Song" and "Praise Is Rising". So, I find that this woman's overt use of songs specifically written at and for IHOP is extremely disturbing. Please let me know if this helps...

[Wondergirl]

Thanks! That helps explain. We have several members who hang out on Christianity whom I hope will drop in and give their insight. Meanwhile, I emailed my sister (Pentecostal) to ask what she thinks. She and I are both Evangelical Lutheran preacher's kids. Please sit tight and be patient. I'll PM members, if necessary, to come on over.

[Fr_Chuck]

You talk about "controlling" but yet, that is exactly what you are also trying to do,, control it to only one type of music.

I have read the bible, more times than most... there is no style, or type of music listed in the bible... in fact, if you played the Christian rock music to anyone of the Bible years, most would declare it of satan. So the speed and sound of the music has nothing to do with it at all.
Maybe I missed the dance issue, but dance is also very Biblical to do in Christian worship.

I will be blunt, very blunt... you need to get off your high, holier than thou attitude, and enjoy and make the most of the church you have.

There is not a single church, not one, that will be perfect. All will have a few issues that not everyone will agree with. You are now allowing, one person, to destroy your fellowship, which shows a serous weakness in your faith... Your fellowship together with other Christians, has noting to do, with their faith,, it is your faith..

Your writing, sounds more as a cult to me, since it is demanding that everyone follow exactly the same practice.

If you read Paul,, you will see that various churches, had different practices, and that many of the things evolved over time.

And honestly, fellowship was sitting and talking, over a dinner, when it started in the bible, not a praise and worship service.

I am not sure, how much you have learned about theology and understand the different forms of writing styles in the bible. But often laymen, really misunderstand Bible meanings, by taking some things said in English, without knowing the many translation issues.

So if there are really many people, feeling the same way... why do not all of you. Go to pastor together. If it is the majority of the church, go as a group, not only to the pastor, but to the person doing this.

You never did say one doctrine issue, that she is doing, what is wrong with her music... it can not be speed or beat, there is nothing in Bible about that, so it has to be the words, a teaching... so what teaching, is she doing, that is wrong...

You bring up Charismatic several times, so what about her message that is not.

[smoothy]

Every Church denomination has its own style... every preacher of priest has their own too. Who is it to claim what's right or wrong based on what their opinion is... there are probibly plenty of others who like the change... if enough don't like it... then it will change.

I've seen quite a few changes over the years and new Preachers or Priests come and go... some better than others, (based on my own opinion)... but one thing can be assured... its never the same from one to the next. And that holds true in both Protestant and Catholic churches ( I'm Protestant, and wife is Catholic so we tend to go to attend either as the mood strikes.)

And I see HUGE differences between Catholic Churches in Italy, from Catholic Churches in the USA in just how things are done on a basic level. Before the Priests personality comes into play.

[dwashbur]

First, have you tried talking to the woman directly and asking her about all this? I'd suggest approaching it from a "I've never heard some of these before, can you tell me more about where you get them and what your approach to worship is?" Give her a chance to tell you exactly what she's doing. She might surprise you, especially based on what the pastor told you.

Second, can you give some specific song examples? Just titles are fine, we can look them up from there. I almost got the impression you're opposed to experience-based songs from what you said, but if you have a problem with that kind of song, I recommend you don't ever read the Psalms. <insert something to indicate "that's me being silly" here> But I've heard a lot of people/churches talk about this and that as being "unbiblical" and in many cases, it's overstated. To really help answer your question, I/we need more specifics.

Third, Fr Chuck, the questioner specifically said they were NOT trying to discuss or critique musical styles. From your post, I'd guess you didn't see that part.

[Wondergirl]

I have read numerous posts from former members in which some of their prayer methods are identified as being Buddist in origin.

My sister and I emailed last night. From what she knows about IHOP, one of the chanting prayers is "Come, Lord Jesus," repeatedly asking Jesus to return to us in glory and begin the End Times. Does that sound similar to what you've experienced?

I agree with dwashbur in that you need to sit down with this woman in a non-confrontational way and ask good questions (and be a good listener).

[bethesdalily]

FR_chuck and Smoothy, what I believe I'm hearing you say is that we should keep attending this church since this woman is not specifically teaching in the role of a pastor, but simply leading worship. That's valid advice, and my family and I have been working at it. Dwashbur, thank you for attempting to clarify something--I'm not opposed to experience-based songs. You're right--the Psalms feature plenty of those! No, I'm not opposed to experience-based, testimony-oriented songs or those that specifically and personally address the Lord or cry out for His help. What I'm referring to here is a set of experience-based songs whose metaphors don't reflect anything in Scripture and who seem to be portraying God without really describing anything of Who He is. It's not the experience, it's the experience without and excluding the Scriptures. Wondergirl, your sister posed a good question. "Come, Lord Jesus" is Scriptural, something we see in I Corinthians and throughout Revelation, and I feel that it's something we should all be praying, as believers. The problem comes in when it is spoken/chanted in the WAY that this organization is doing it. I was once at the home of someone who subscribes to a lot of IHOP's teachings. Before going to bed, this person turned on their streaming radio station and I began to listen to what they were doing/teaching. I heard Psalm 45:5:2-4 sung repeatedly without comment, but in a tone that seemed to me less than worshipful, for over an hour. Just those Scriptures. And, unlike times in other worship services where the presence of the Holy Spirit was so strong that one just couldn't help singing spontaneous songs long past conventional length, what I heard in these singers' voices was a lot of effort. CCome, Lord Jesus"--the words themselves, the heart behind them, and certainly the theology--are beautiful, but it's WHAT IHOP is doing with the words, not the texts they use, that makes me uncomfortable. Please understand that this, too, is only by way of explanation. Fr-chuck, I'm sorry that you feel my writing has been judgmental and pious--that was never my intention. I was asked for more detail, and I'm trying to provide it, in order to get some help with what seems to be a truly sticky situation--don't forget that I'm sandwiched between this woman's way of worship and my family's need for a good church. Believe me--I know that what I'm writing sounds a little vague. I will try to give you song titles, Dwashbur and Wondergirl, but that will take some research and today is an extremely busy day. The reason I'm being so vague is not that I'm just being picky about something small, but because some of the differences are so subtle or so vague themselves that they're hard to pinpoint. I wouldn't even be concerned about this except that I've seen the way the IHOP movement likes to operate--they find one or two people who hold to their teachings, or they send people, in hopes of getting the nondenominational church to eventually join them and their organization. I've seen it in other churches, up-close and personal, and I've even seen IHOP themselves talk about their method of introducing themselves to churches before. I wonder if this woman is specifically coming in from IHOP to "teach" us--to at least foster ideas in the minds of the congregation. Dwashbur and Wondergirl, you also suggested that I talk to this woman and ask her about her songs, her heart, etc. I think this is a wonderful idea. It may be difficult for anyone here to believe, but I'm actually a very non-confrontational person in real life--extremely shy, and willing to go along with the status quo unless said status quo is making me spiritually uncomfortable. Hence, my writing here to ask for advice. I'm beginning to feel that perhaps I shouldn't have placed all the specifics about IHOP in my original question--though I think one of you might eventually have asked for them anyway! Let me rephrase, though: If you were experiencing profound family tensions, a church you love--because, you see, I do still love this church--was doing "something that made you very uncomfortable in the Lord", and you'd already talked to the pastor, what would you do then? My goal here is not to rant against this movement, even though I disagree with its teachings, but to find some practical answers regarding what my family as a whole should do or, if not that, whether I should allow the rest of my family to attend while I seek out other worship opportunities. At the moment, talking directly to the woman who is leading sounds like the best solution.

[smoothy]

Yes, that's what I am implying. You will have Pastors you really don't like much, you will have some you hate to see go and will never, ever forget. Try not to put too much stock in what one person says... particularly someone other than the Pastor, as they don't speak for everyone.

Personally... rather than confront her, I'd speak with the Pastor, if enough people dislike her style... he could gracefully have someone else replace her without causing any public embarrassment. After all isn't it they who chose that person to begin with?

[Wondergirl]

You would talk with her to find out where she's coming from, i.e., know your "enemy." If you talk with the pastor about her and the situation, it becomes hearsay, gossip. I think better to go right to the horse's mouth, as a learning experienQce. I've been reading up on IHOP and have an opinion, but won't give it right now. Be calm and centered.

[ma0641]

As Smoothy has explained, many pastors find "only" their way acceptable. We had a pastor who wouldn't allow non Catholic composed music, no Bach, Mozart etc-how narrow. He told me I couldn't be on the altar because it was sacrilegious to use a guitar. Furthermore, "I will never show my face at one of your guitar masses". Guess who played on the altar.

[joypulv]

I'm worried by your title question, including the words 'bad doctrine,' as well as the family tensions mentioned there and throughout the post.
Is there a chance that you are painting yourself into a corner by being too critical everywhere you go? Bad doctrine is so... loaded and final. You leave no room for differences. You allude to alienating family already, and I wonder if your little sister won't go anymore because of all your discussion about this.
I don't know anything about different kinds of music and don't want to. I'm more worried about the family dynamic falling apart. Sometimes you bite your lip and sacrifice what you want to hold something together.

Or go start your own church...

[bethesdalily]

I'm hoping to respond to all of you soon, but Joypulv brings up some good points. Have I been too critical in the past? Probably, on two occasions that I know of. The other occasions were times when I was genuinely concerned--so much so that I could not, in good conscious, do something I was so uncomfortable with. My younger sister... That's an interesting dynamic, but I don't think it has anything to do with me--the rest of my family, but not her--she has her own reasons for not wanting to attend the churches in our area, and she has discussed them with me at length. At the moment, I'm employing the solution you suggested--not saying anything and continuing to attend with my family. The only reason I even bring this up here is that even certain of my family have said that they, too, are uncomfortable... But, yes, sometimes seeking and pursuing peace is best.

[Fr_Chuck]

One has to understand, Chats was the proper religious music, long before, what is used in Church today. If you are using drums, electric guitars, and doing rock music, Personally I feel that is less Christian, than nice slower music and chants.

All of the early churches, did Chants, there are many many famous ones.

I was fired from one of my early positions in a Lutheran Church for playing "Amazing Grace" because it was not Biblical and not in the Lutheran Hymnal.

I do agree, one has to watch, WHAT is being said, the words and the message. But no, the way it is done, the music, if rock, if slow, or chant, is more the personality of the local group. Think of the words, not the way it is sang.

Chanting has nothing to do with cults ( except they may use them) but chanting is just a traditional music from, and used in Christianity long before modern cult or most of the protestant churches existed.

Buddhist do chant, but that has nothing to do with anything... they knell, and raise their hands in prayer.. are you stopping that, because Buddhist do it?

Jesus, taught in the Jewish temples, Paul preached in them.. did he and other followers hear things they did not agree with.. but they were there for their message

I seldom discuss theology here, but there is one issue I do know, the majority of people, have no idea what many parts of the bible is really saying, because they take a few verse out of context. Also, they do not realize, there are 4 types of writing in the bible, and interpretation has to be done, according to not only what is being said, but in what style it is presented.

[dwashbur]

"something that made you very uncomfortable in the Lord"

This statement makes *me* uncomfortable, simply because adding the phrase "in the Lord" is too often a cop-out for one's own emotional responses. This is the big problem I have with such things, because the truth is, we can't tell if that feeling is the Lord, or the pizza we had for lunch. I have a friend who actually gets physical spasms when he enters a church. But it's because of some stuff in his past. And that's the whole problem: feelings are feelings. Impressions are impressions. And really, when it comes to "good doctrine" or "bad doctrine," the only real test in the Bible is whether Jesus is Lord. It's taken me all of my 61 years, but in that time I've managed to narrow my own personal "doctrinal statement" to two points: 1. God exists. 2. Jesus rose. Everything else is pretty negotiable. So the other question is: is it possible you're being a bit too doctrinally picky? Do the things you're getting upset about really matter that much? That's why I keep asking what the songs say, because that's where the answer to that question is.

[paraclete]

I will give you a piece of wisdom given to me by God long ago when I had difficulties with worship style and even teaching in a church.

You have taken this matter to the pastor so scripturally the next step is to place it before the assembly otherwise be silent. ACTS 19:39 I ultimately moved on from that church. You see if you see a church is moving down a path you don't agree with, you have two courses of action either you can attempt to speak about the issue in love or you can withdraw, but what you cannot do is place man above God or sound teaching. You cannot be in disagreement because of your family yet in opposition to leadership

[classyT]

I so don't know how to use this sight anymore! Ugh. But anyway, I must respond to Dwashbur and the 2 things he knows for sure. 1. God Exists and 2. Jesus Rose. Wow! Bully for you, Satan knows both of those things.? That's what you came away with in all your studies? Smh Come on1 you knew more when you started this site. I'm worried.

To the OP, Get out! I'm sorry to be so blunt but if these worship songs are not praising the LORD JESUS CHRIST and HIM alone what the heck does that have to do with you? It is either about HIM and his finished work and what it has done in your life, or it is about NOTHING. It may be hard on your family with your sister but you are not helping anyone. Sunday worship is about HIM and HIM alone!! If the words don't magnify JESUS CHRIST... Move on! There is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved! Lyrics matter!

[classyT]

Dwashbur, I'm just giving you a hard time. Hey you were the one who suggested amhd! Haha

[dwashbur]

Good to see you found something to do, sis ;)