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    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #1

    Jul 4, 2014, 04:13 AM
    Those "Old" founders .
    I've heard it repeated here that the founders were a bunch of "old" white guys. Well here is a refute to the "old" charge .
    Here are some of the prominent founders and influential people of the Revolution.

    Marquis de Lafayette was eighteen years old in 1776, when he was offered the rank of Major General in the American army.

    Alexander Hamilton, at the age of twenty-one, received his commission as Captain of a New York artillery company. He went on to successfully lead his men through critical battles with the British in and around New York City. Hamilton’s military performance and writing skills so impressed George Washington that the General appointed young Hamilton as his personal aide, and promoted him to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. He served with distinction through the rest of the war.
    As a teenager, Hamilton had already written essays arguing for American independence from Britain. His abilities in writing, law, and political theory were at least as great as his military prowess, and he went on after the war to co-author the famous Federalist Papers with James Madison and John Jay.


    At the age of twenty-five, James Madison played a pivotal role by representing Virginia’s Orange County in the drafting of his state’s Constitution. Starting that same year, he continued to be a leader in the Virginia state legislature, where he was notable as an advocate for religious freedom.
    While in college, he and some friends formed a political club for discussing oppressive British policy. After the war, he went on to serve as the youngest member of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, co-wrote the Federalist Papers with Alexander Hamilton and John Jay, and served as President of the United States during the War of 1812.


    John Jay was thirty years old when he served as a delegate to New York’s constitutional convention, where he had a formative influence on the creation of that major state’s new governing documents. From there he continued to be influential within the New York legal system. Jay had initially sought reconciliation with Britain, but in 1776 became an ardent American patriot and advocate for the ideal of liberty, including the liberty of African-American slaves.
    He went on from the war to serve as ambassador to France and Spain, as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, and as co-author of the Federalist Papers.

    At the age of thirty-three, Jefferson, already then serving as a member of Virginia’s state legislature, was selected by his peers to draft the Declaration of Independence.
    [Taken from Generation Opportunity web site .]
    Happy 4th of July! - Generation Opportunity

    This would put all of them in the Millennial generation today. As the site says : If those young Americans had just sat back and let older generations make decisions for them, the United States wouldn’t be the independent nation it is today.
    Catsmine's Avatar
    Catsmine Posts: 3,826, Reputation: 739
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    #2

    Jul 4, 2014, 05:39 AM
    Interesting to note that Jay was an abolitionist before such were in vogue. This gives the lie to the "white slave owners" myth as well. Anyone want to tackle the "rich white guys" meme?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #3

    Jul 4, 2014, 07:58 AM
    But at what age did they (and people in general) die during those times? And how productive were they in their later years?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #4

    Jul 4, 2014, 01:49 PM
    Hamilton was struck down when he was middle aged in the duel with Aaron Burr . Both John Adams and Jefferson died on July 4 1826 on the 50th Independence Day. Laffayette died in 1834. I did not check Jay or Madison . But as you see ,they lived to ripe old ages .
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #5

    Jul 4, 2014, 04:36 PM
    I think perhaps the statement that they were "old white guys" might have had two components one of which you have not addressed. Now I know it is hard to address the other component because of what the society was at the time, but the fact is they came from an essentially british society which enjoyed a great deal of privilige if for no other reason that it was a society based on slavery. Where is the representation from the very large slave class population who were for political purposes invisible, non-citizens? These men did not write laws for the benefit of that population
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    Catsmine Posts: 3,826, Reputation: 739
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    #6

    Jul 4, 2014, 06:13 PM
    I think perhaps the statement that they were "old white guys" might have had two components one of which you have not addressed. Now I know it is hard to address the other component because of what the society was at the time, but the fact is they came from an essentially british society which enjoyed a great deal of privilige if for no other reason that it was a society based on slavery. Where is the representation from the very large slave class population who were for political purposes invisible, non-citizens? These men did not write laws for the benefit of that population
    There's that "white slave owners" meme I was talking about. It is gratifying to note that you mention our common parent society as the slaver, rather than the more common stereotype of Yankee traders inventing the concept.
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    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #7

    Jul 4, 2014, 06:54 PM
    Yes the british were essentially slave traders rather than slave owners, slavery wasn't endemic in the british isles but rather something they did in the colonies far from the sight of polite society, nor was it a particular british invention but nevertheless the rights of certain people were ignored by those most noble of founders who considered the trade something that later generations might form a different view on. Those in the colonies were happy to profit from slavery and continue the system beyond their newly won freedom. We are all aware of the outcome as the enlightment and its ideas came late to the americas in this respect. The american revolution may have been the catylist to change many ideas in in britain but in a reactionary sense
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #8

    Jul 4, 2014, 08:29 PM
    A look at the US Constitution will give us a glimpse of the political turmoil of the day. Then like now, there were people on both sides of the argument. Slavery was just one of the issues. We see that a compromise had to be made, for them to even accept the US Constitution. Section 9 Article 1

    The compromise was that the Federal Government would not interfere till after 1808 on matters of slavery. It also allowed the Federal Government to interfere in any new state that would be formed, or in any US territory.
    This compromise was won by General Pinckney who was representing slave owners from North and South Carolina and Georgia. It also in Article IV allowed for slaves to be returned, if they fled to another state. But also did not require if they escape to a territory or a new state.

    This and other restrictions on Federal power, was one of the reasons, James Madison refused to sign the Constitution. Only 39 of the 50 delegates actually signed the Constitution. Some were absent, but some absent were gone due to protest of the document.

    The same issues we have today, over power of the Federal Government, fear of the power of the Supreme Court, domestic and international affairs, were all issues then also...

    Today, our Congress could not even come close to passing the US Constitution. It would be in committee for the next 20 years.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #9

    Jul 5, 2014, 02:29 AM
    I intentionally tried to avoid slavery and the allegeded wealth of the founders in this op because I have addressed those in previous posts.

    the founders interested me because ,unlike the youth of today with their noses buried in their i pods sexting and playing video games ,the founders self schooled themselves in the classics and the enlightenment theories. The link I provided is a call for the new generation to emulate the founders .
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #10

    Jul 5, 2014, 05:49 AM
    I intentionally tried to avoid slavery and the allegeded wealth of the founders in this op because I have addressed those in previous posts.

    the founders interested me because ,unlike the youth of today with their noses buried in their i pods sexting and playing video games ,the founders self schooled themselves in the classics and the enlightenment theories. The link I provided is a call for the new generation to emulate the founders .
    yes Tom only wanting to discuss what you want to discuss and not the disgusting views of those you hold in high esteem. if these men were flawed in that view they were flawed in others and today the society you have is teh result of those flaws. let me say it again Tom, flaws, and flaws you have sought to impose on others
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #11

    Jul 5, 2014, 12:33 PM
    All you are doing is using 21st century standards to judge 17th Century men ...You show an amazing lack of intellectual honesty . By all measures ;most of the founders were light years ahead of their time regarding human rights.
    Tuttyd's Avatar
    Tuttyd Posts: 53, Reputation: 4
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    #12

    Jul 5, 2014, 02:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I intentionally tried to avoid slavery and the allegeded wealth of the founders in this op because I have addressed those in previous posts.

    the founders interested me because ,unlike the youth of today with their noses buried in their i pods sexting and playing video games ,the founders self schooled themselves in the classics and the enlightenment theories. The link I provided is a call for the new generation to emulate the founders .
    Tom, The Founding Fathers were the intellectuals of their day. They were the educated elite of that society. You didn't often come across the butcher, the baker and the candle-stick maker discussing a comparison of Locke and Hobbes.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #13

    Jul 5, 2014, 03:35 PM
    so the young adults of today do not have that ready made excuse for not being educated since public school education is mandatory .
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #14

    Jul 5, 2014, 04:34 PM
    Those founders did not ahve the diversions of today therefore lively debate was a part of their society
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #15

    Jul 6, 2014, 01:40 AM
    you are getting close to my point.
    Tuttyd's Avatar
    Tuttyd Posts: 53, Reputation: 4
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    #16

    Jul 6, 2014, 01:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    so the young adults of today do not have that ready made excuse for not being educated since public school education is mandatory .
    My comment wasn't a criticism, it's just the way things were. With privilege came certain benefits, such as education.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #17

    Jul 6, 2014, 02:55 AM
    there should be more youth with the intellectual curiosity and the activism today then there were at the time of the founding . Instead what we get is something like the Occupy movement ,a fad with a disjointed ,almost unintelligible philosophical premise . I've seen it demonstrated often enough that the kids of today spend their free time binge watching 'Orange is the New Black' ,and as I previously mentioned ;could not pass a basic citizens test given during the naturalization process.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #18

    Jul 6, 2014, 05:37 AM
    Tom you want that, then you have to remove some modern benefits
    Catsmine's Avatar
    Catsmine Posts: 3,826, Reputation: 739
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    #19

    Jul 6, 2014, 06:49 AM
    remove some modern benefits
    Like State Laws?

    USC doesn’t want to teach the Constitution, despite state law | The Daily Caller
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #20

    Jul 6, 2014, 07:14 AM
    Are you kidding me? A student raising hell? Well why don't you see if he has a valid argument or is he blowing smoke to get attention. You do know they have a law curriculum at U of SC don't you?

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