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smoothy · Jun 6, 2014, 10:40 AM

Close ebaines... I think most adults need to learn their lessons the hard way... otherwise they won't really understand or respect the reasons unless they see it for themselves. You could have told them over and over... but until they go through it... they would have brushed you off with a well you don't see them like I do... or you just don't understand.

Its a rare person that actually TAKES advice when its given at face value....when its contrary to what they want to do.

Take a look at 99% of the posts on relationships... how many of these people who should run away screaming keep going back for more crap over and over again... and blow off any advice telling them to run not walk away.

Applies on a LOT of topics.

I had no empathy for the idiots at Jonestown... remember that cult? I think the human gene pool got just a little better after that.

Wondergirl · Jun 6, 2014, 10:44 AM

You can be empathetic and reflective in a "negative" way too -- "You really want to drink that kool-aid, do you?"' Empathy isn't sympathy.

mogrann · Jun 6, 2014, 10:55 AM

Smoothy you are a good person deep down. Thank you for what you said to me. I see it in your posts because you care. You can deny it but I see it. You shoot straight from the hip and are blunt but still care. If you did not care you would not comment on the threads you would say sucker mwhahahaha your own fault.
I am sure you don't blame everyone at Jonestown.. there were some innocents there (children). You and I are kind of similar in one aspect... black and white thinking. I still struggle with it. Everything is not all right or all wrong. Rules do not apply always when it comes to people. You need to look at situations.
For example Jonestown.
Everyone who drank the koolaid were idiots (black and white thinking)
People who drank the koolaid and knew what it was were idiots. (skillful)

smoothy · Jun 6, 2014, 11:18 AM

Being I'm an Engineer... I do tend to see things in absolutes... it either meets spec or it doesn't... there really isn't a lot of "well it depends" in my world.

If something isn't meeting it... there is always a reason... the reason must be identified... EG if there was a commercial power outage... thats acceptable. If if can't be positively identified... it has to be worked until it has been and the offending equipment repaired or replaced. There really isn't a grey area of "well its close enough".

The old analogy of "Close enough for government work" is a misnomer at least depending on your perspective. The Government is the toughest customer I've seen and has the highest standards at least from my perspective of providing a service to them. And those standards are part of every contract I've dealt with adn clearly defined. Conversely I've Personally seen clerks working the desk at several INS offices where I seriously wondered how they manage to dress themselves every day... also wondering if they got their job in a lottery or if their interviewer was under the influence of something rather strong at the time.

Catsmine · Jun 6, 2014, 01:36 PM

Those of us on the Libertarian end of politics quite often confuse Anonymous with the Occupy vandals, just as the TEA groups and the Religious Right seem to have almost the same membership. The down side to Anonymous seems to be their unwillingness to work within the system for change.

paraclete · Jun 7, 2014, 05:24 AM

he's an engineer, he thinks in absolutes, to borrow from Star Wars only a sith thinks in absolutes. I see it all now, it's a sith plot, so Obama as sith and you, are you the apprentice? spreading disinformation

tomder55 · Jun 7, 2014, 06:18 AM

only a sith thinks in absolutes

had to be the most ignorant quote in the whole Star Wars series. For one thing ;there was nothing more dogmatic in the series than the Jedi order. By making that statement (only a Sith deals in absolutes ) ,Obi is making an absolute statement .

When Windu took down Palpatine ;he decided that Palpatine did not deserve a trial . It was Anakin ,trying to do the right thing ,that prevented the summary execution . So apparently the black v white lines between the Sith and the Jedi could at times be shades of gray . Perhaps that is what Obi meant by that comment ?

talaniman · Jun 7, 2014, 06:43 AM

There are seldom absolutes that can apply to every situation as conditions and situations are often changing and big factors in the outcomes. Even an engineer accepts the same design that worked well in one situation won't work in another because of conditions, or situations. Then he must change his thinking and make adjustments for a good outcome.

Mogrann, I can appreciate your disappointment in finding out that which you had put such high hopes in didn't work as you wanted, and I hope your adjustments to this situation goes well. In time I think it will.

NeedKarma · Jun 7, 2014, 02:54 PM

Even an engineer accepts the same design that worked well in one situation won't work in another because of conditions, or situations. Then he must change his thinking and make adjustments for a good outcome.

Yep, that's just applying scientific principles properly.

mogrann · Jun 7, 2014, 03:55 PM

Ironic that today was a day full of frustration due to my black and white thinking. RULES ARE MADE TO BE FOLLOWED. NO EXCEPTIONS. I was told when filling the front of the deli add 3 days to expiry dates that date is when we pull stuff. For example today is June 7 so nothing before June 10 is to be in the deli... Guess there is a grey line in that I got told today by one manager. Another manager told me differently. Gahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Just set rules and tell me keep them the same. NO grey areas for this lady. Too stressful

paraclete · Jun 7, 2014, 03:58 PM

had to be the most ignorant quote in the whole Star Wars series. For one thing ;there was nothing more dogmatic in the series than the Jedi order. By making that statement (only a Sith deals in absolutes ) ,Obi is making an absolute statement .

When Windu took down Palpatine ;he decided that Palpatine did not deserve a trial . It was Anakin ,trying to do the right thing ,that prevented the summary execution . So apparently the black v white lines between the Sith and the Jedi could at times be shades of gray . Perhaps that is what Obi meant by that comment ?

And you don't understand that Star Wars is mirror image of the world you live in. The seperatists, (capitalists) trying to drain the last drop of profit, the Jedi, a righteous judiciary, upholding the power of the empire, the sith, incidideous politics, playing both sides against each other, and Anakin, disaffected youth, obscessed with self, the clones, a mindless military, the blunt instrument of policy, the senate, a do nothing government, unable to enact anything useful

tomder55 · Jun 7, 2014, 04:50 PM

the Jedi, a righteous judiciary, upholding the power of the empire

the Republic you mean . I stick by my comment .They are the most rigidly dogmatic group in the story .

smoothy · Jun 7, 2014, 06:40 PM

NK and Tal... its obvious neither of you are engineers if you make those statements.

Absolutes do exist... and exist in many, MANY situtations. The end requirements are an absolute... Specifications require X as a minimum. That is not up for negotiation... its an absolute... It has nothing to do with the means to get there, THe means used MUST meet that spec in he end... If its across town... or to the other side of the planet... that spec remains constant... its an absolute. Particularly when you deal with FCC specs... they are cast in stone... there is no fudge room. Sign papers that show it measures out of spec... its rejected and you are in trouble for releasing a product that fails to meet spec... lie and fake the numbers to show it meets spec.. you are in trouble... and also liable for possible legal action for falsifying federally required documentation. No GRAY area there... its a very hard limit.

I've seen very costly lawsuits resulting from someone thinking those specs and contracts were a suggestion and not a solid hard limit.

I saw Martin Marietta busted bigtime in 1987 (before the Lockheed merger) I saw a freind get fired for not fudging certifications under his supervisors direct orders.....I saw him sue the company and basically get a job for life (Federal court ordered him reinstated and basically fire proofed him as long as he showed up for work and didn't physically assault his boss)....and a settlement large enough his future retirement was fully funded when he was still in his mid 20's.

Had someone different try that with me not long after that.....I basically told them to get stuffed and I took it up with their boss and the CEO of the company both...they got fired that afternoon.

Catsmine · Jun 8, 2014, 02:24 AM

Star Wars is mirror image of the world you live in

As Saul Bellow wrote to Bruce McAllister in 1963 (in response to a question about whether readers find symbolism in his works that isn't there), "Symbol hunting is absurd."

NeedKarma · Jun 8, 2014, 03:09 AM

NK and Tal... its obvious neither of you are engineers if you make those statements.

How little you know. And frankly I doubt the veracity of many of your stories.

talaniman · Jun 8, 2014, 04:20 AM

Then why are building codes varied from location to location? There may be constants, and standards but no absolutes. Designers may have to meet a minimum standard, but are allowed to exceed the minimum all the time, and we are not talking shortcut to maximize profits.

That may be done a lot but most endeavors have policy and procedure to adhere to developed over time and with much trial and error and regulated by law. But no absolutes.

Our debate is not about bridges though its about the written word specifically about how we interpret the Constitution and thats where I most disagree with your term absolute. Obviously if even a group of engineers can see things differently then so can citizens governed by that Constitution. Now you may have gotten an A for memorizing the words and should be commended for the effort, but that doesn't make your interpretation an absolute one at all, just your opinion, and the courts have ruled many of your absolutes to be false as while you can bear arms, government can set limits on the arms you can bear, and regulate whatever militia you form.

And McDonald's can regulate if you bear your arms in their establishment or NOT. Your absolute rights have limits.

cdad · Jun 8, 2014, 07:28 AM

When you open the door to debate and you keep moving the line then soon you have no line at all. The term a line in the sand is not open for debate and not a starting point. It is an end to a means. When you want to debate the Constitution you need to be very careful about the reinterpretation you create. You have only 2 choices. Freedom or infringement. Those that choose infringement are the ones that trade away freedom for a supposed security. They want to regulate everything. That is not what the Constitution is about. It is about creating a nation that remains free beyond the barriers of time. Words change all the time and new words enter into the language as well as old words changing in meaning. So it is up to all of us to determine which path we want to be on - Freedom or Infringement. It is a choice we are all given for now by the Constitution.

mogrann · Jun 8, 2014, 07:40 AM

I like your post cdad but remember this it is freedom from harm for all. I don't see that lately with the world (not just the US). We need to restrict people who should not have guns from getting them for example. Pretty simple you have mental health issues you don't get a gun. The news is now reporting the moncton shooter had his guns legally and also had mental health issues. THAT IS WRONG! Yes he can still get guns illegally but lets fix the system for getting them legally first then work on the illegal trade.
I will never own a gun or have one in my house due to my issues and because of that lately I don't feel safe. Isn't that sad that due to me being responsible and realizing guns can be dangerous for me (previous suicide attempts is my reasoning) I am at risk of being hurt if someone breaks into our house. Yes it is a real fear for me due to crimes in our area, neighbor being stabbed, and the way the world is going. I have Owen and I am sure he will try to protect me but I don't want him hurt either.

Catsmine · Jun 8, 2014, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by mogrann

me being responsible

Aye, there's the rub. Those who would rule neglect the other side of Liberty: Responsibility. If I wish the freedom to swing my fist, I alone am responsible for ensuring it does not contact your nose (a lousy target, I could break a knuckle). The wannabe rulers claim various reasons to deny me that responsibility and therefore deny me that freedom. They buy into the Hippie culture notion that Liberty and Libertine are synonymous. I was a Flower Child; it took me many years to realize the difference, but I did grow up.

talaniman · Jun 8, 2014, 08:33 AM

Why do we limit ourselves to just two extremes when there are many choices and adjustments in the middle? That's what debate is about finding those choices that work. Is letting an undiagnosed loony buy a gun the price of freedom?

Is that the best we can do? I don't buy it at all. I think the core problem is people not trusting their duly elected officials or making them accountable to do the job we entrust them with. Some are more fearful than others and decisions and choices made in abject fear do not ensure good or fair outcomes. Is there no safe balance between the right to bear arms and a well regulated militia? One accountable to the people they serve and not just self serving unto itself?

Sorry but as a nation we have more and better choices that either or and two opposite extremes. Neither of which ensures, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness or freedom. Just ask the victims of crime or a loony rampage.