[JoeT777]

I know what "Church" is not. Church is not the unique differences between the various Christian religions deemed inconsequential; “based on incorrect theological perspectives and is characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another.’“ Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris mission, December 7, 1990. It would seem to me that the Church of Jesus Christ cannot participate in any such definition; primarily because Divine Truth is not an amalgamation of partial Divine Truths. Since faith resides in the intellect, this type of faith is "one's own invention and milieu" and will not "bring us into the company of believers" (Pope Benedict XVI, Principles of Catholic theology: building stones for a fundamental theology, 1987) Thus, the Church is not a company of like minded believers joined together by good vibes of Christ's Divinity and Christ's humanity.


If we hold that God's word is immutable, never changing, and incorruptible; we find "God is Truth" (Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas). From which we can deduce there is only one True Word. We can further conclude if there is One Devine Truth of Christ gave His authority to teach divinely to One organ. If there is only One divinely taught Truth would you agree there can only be one Divine College that teaches infallibly as one discipline as an irreformable Truth. Only the Divine can receive and bind others to an immutable Truth with the authority to oblige.

What, given the above, is that divine authority that received the commission to teach an irreformable Truth? What is that Church?


JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Church is "where two or three gather together in my name" (Matt. 18:20).

[talaniman]

Church is life, and the lives you touch.

[JoeT777]

Church is "where two or three gather together in my name" (Matt. 18:20).

This verse has two equally valid parts. To gather the full truth accepting one part means we must also accept the other. Accept that the two or three gathered in name and authority of Christ then the gathered are in the unicity of the ‘Church’. That one assembly united in Christ, the living Truth, i.e. the Body of Christ which is ‘Church’. Within the context of the Gospel this verse conveys Christ’s command and caution that we pray in the great unanimity He is to obtain the majesty of God the gathered pray for - even though there be only two or three. Even these small numbers of His members of Church can effect “anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven.” (Cf. Cyprian of Carthage, On the Unity of the Church, Treatise 1, 12)


As this gathering are already 'Church', you’ve may have explained how 'Church' works in prayer - in a small way, but you haven’t explained what is ‘Church’.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

Church is life, and the lives you touch.

This doesn't define any 'Church' I know of, it seems more like a social club. Not that I have anything against the Optimist Club, but this sounds more like their creed, touching lives optimistically for the better.

JoeT

[talaniman]

You are right, it only defines my church. I don't go to it but it, goes where ever I go every day not just on Sunday. I have visited many houses of worship, not just a church.

[Wondergirl]

Church is life, and the lives you touch.

I agree. We have been blessed by God and are therefore to be a blessing to others. Church happens every day, everywhere when we see God in another's face and connect with that person with unconditional love.

Like my favorite pastor used to say, "Church begins when you leave the building."

[JoeT777]

You are right, it only defines my church. I don't go to it but it, goes where ever I go every day not just on Sunday. I have visited many houses of worship, not just a church.

I agree. We have been blessed by God and are therefore to be a blessing to others. Church happens every day, everywhere when we see God in another's face and connect with that person with unconditional love.

Like my favorite pastor used to say, "Church begins when you leave the building."

Am I to understand that each, talaniman, Wondergirl and other similar 'gatherings' are individual Bodies of Christ? (Cf. 1 Corinthians 12:27). How many different 'One Body of Christ(s)' are there? Are they individual and different 'Truths' as well? If not why are they not one and the same Church?

It seems odd, there is a suggestion that there are 'multiple' bodies of Christ. I thought we were called into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13) and One body (Ephesians 4:4). How is one "joined to the Lord, is one spirit" (1 Corinthians 6:17) and yet separate and apart in the spirit, in the body of faith and in knowledge?

JoeT

[talaniman]

Are you saying only one church body/building/congregation is legit? I am confused as to your statement.

[Wondergirl]

Am I to understand that each, talaniman, Wondergirl and other similar 'gatherings' are individual Bodies of Christ?

There is only one "gathering," one Truth, one Church. The Kingdom of God -- God's Church -- is within us when we love Him and reach out to share His love with and minister to others. We are called and sanctified by the Holy Spirit to be this Church, to be a type of Christ to others.

[Catsmine]

Joe,

If you continue to use only Roman Catholic source material, logic dictates that the only answer is the Roman Catholic Church.

[JoeT777]

Areyou saying only one church body/building/congregation is legit? I am confusedas to your statement.

I've been accused of being confusing at times - probably with some justification.

Shouldn't there only be 'One Body of Christ' as St. Paul described Church? He speaks of the Church as One Body and that her members parts are in "one spirit, with one mind laboring together for the faith of the gospel". (Philippians 1:27). In my estimation the Church the members might have diverse graces but all proclaim the very SAME Lord (Cf. 1 Corinthians 12:4). It seems to me that a cacophony of different 'Churches' do not meet the same definition as Scripture, primarily because commissioned to teach a divine Truth. And to state the obvious, different Churches teach different 'truths', thus precluding all but one as 'Church'.

I had asked 'What is Church' wondering what answer I might get.

JoeT

[talaniman]

So pick one and enjoy it. :D

[JoeT777]

Joe,

If you continue to use only Roman Catholic source material, logic dictates that the only answer is the Roman Catholic Church.

It certainly is hoped to conclude with only ONE Church.

Whether Scripture 'Roman Catholic' is not the topic. However, I would agree that it is a special part of her Sacred Tradition. Scripture is the majority of the material I've used thus far. A quote from Pope John Paul II was used but only to show the fallacy of multiple 'Churches'.

JoeT

[Catsmine]

It certainly is hoped to conclude with only ONE Church.

Whether Scripture 'Roman Catholic' is not the topic. However, I would agree that it is a special part of her Sacred Tradition. Scripture is the majority of the material I've used thus far. A quote from Pope John Paul II was used but only to show the fallacy of multiple 'Churches'.

JoeT

I count two Popes, a Cardinal, and a Canonized Pope as well as the Bible vereses.

[talaniman]

I guess humans are not of the same mind concerning their church. That's not at all surprising as humans seldom are on the same page about anything. The best we can get is like minds and that's not written in stone either.

[JoeT777]

I count two Popes, a Cardinal, and a Canonized Pope as well as the Bible vereses.

If we want to be punctilious lets get it right. Blessed Pope John XXIII and Blessed Pope John Paul II are to be canonized as Saints on April 27, 2014. Of the two I only mentioned John Paul II. Technically, only two Popes were mentioned, one of which is blessed (not yet canonized) and St. Thomas Aquinas who is canonized a Saint but wasn't a Cardinal.

St. Thomas Aquinas was so devoted to his works he turned down offers to be made bishop or abbot. In the last days of his life he is said to have had a vision or an epiphany of sorts. Josef Pieper writes in The Silence of St. Thomas of St. Thomas Aquinas’ last days, A friend asked why he didn’t continue to write. After the third urging of his friend, St. Thomas Aquinas said, “All that I have hitherto written seems to me nothing but straw . . . compared to what I have seen and has been revealed to me" (Pieper, PP. 39-40). G.K Chesterton also wrote of St. Thomas Aquinas’ mystic like love of divine wisdom,

Then he could be compared with other saints or theologians, as mystic rather than dogmatic. For he was, like a sensible man, a mystic in private and a philosopher in public. He had “religious experience” all right; but he did not, in the modern manner, ask other people to reason from his experience. He only asked them to reason from their own experience. His experiences included well-attested cases of levitation in ecstasy; and the Blessed Virgin appeared to him, comforting him with the welcome news that he would never be a Bishop G.K. Chesterton, The Spectator, Feb. 27, 1932

And we almost missed Cyprian of Carthage, he is indeed a martyred Saint and a bishop. And then there was five New Testament verses from St. Paul.

I think it was a fairly even mix.

JoeT

[talaniman]

Why would you put ANY church between yourself and the god that you understand and have a personal relationship with?

[JoeT777]

Why would you put ANY church between yourself and the god that you understand and have a personalrelationship with?

I wouldn't put a Church between myself and God. However, the Church is the means and opportunity to incorporate ourselves into the Body of Christ and His Spirit. She offers themeans for salvation through the sacraments. The Church is thought of as being like a sacrament, a visible sign of communion and union with God and men. Parishioners are thought of as the member-parts of the Body of Christ visibly joined in one structure. The Church is the visible plan to become one people "built up into one temple of Holy Spirit". (Cf. CCC 775 - CCC 776)

If I ran foot races I wouldn't want any structure obstructing a direct path between me and my goal; except of course for bridges that allow the runner to pass over dark waters. The Church is like that bridge over the dark waters of spiritual death.

JoeT

[talaniman]

Nice answer, never looked at it as a bridge. I just liked going to different congregations.