[JoeT777]

It is my opinion the Church is a Divine institution that is commissioned to teach God's Divine Truth. As Truth is absolute immutable, and irreformable there can only be one “true” confessed faith, and only one tur Church. Given any number Churches each with one or more confesions of faith it is irrefutable that only one can be 'TRUE' or they are all wrong and we can conclude there is no truth at all, thus no God. Christ affirmed only one "fold and one shepherd." [Cf. Matthew 12:25, John 10:16, John 17:21-22, Philippians 2:2, etc. etc.].


It would seem to me that any true Church, one built on an absolute truth, must be without error. “That he [Christ] might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. [Ephesians 5:27]


We the one true Church was commissioned by Christ and built on the Apostles along with their successors. “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” [Matthew 16:18]. Logically it would not bear the name of its human founder.

When there is disagreement in the Church it is resolved within the Church and becomes binding on all of Christ’s faithful. “And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.” [Matthew 18:17]

The Church is prefigured in the Old Testament described as existing in the beginning before the law, lit by Scripture having the power of a two edged sword, earthly and spiritual. Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28. Where in the Old Testament do we find a prefigured Church whose founder is not Theandric?


One is my dove, my perfect one is but one, she is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and declared her most blessed: the queens and concubines, and they praised her. Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array? [Canticles 6:8-9] How are 'many Churches', equally one, each the bride of Christ simultaneously and equally true?


The Church is "the Body of Christ" with Christ as her head, “but I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” [1 Corinthians 11:3] Are there as many One God(s) as there are Churches? Some hold a Triune God, others a bi-une God, and still other others a monophysite god. From the early councils we are taught Christ is one person, one hypostasis, two natures

The True Church of Jesus Christ recognizes “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.” [Ephesians 4:5] Many churches don’t hold to any of the sacraments, yet they are commanded for our defense.

But thou, O Lord, remove not thy help to a distance from me; look towards my defense. [Psalms 21:20]

The soldiers therefore, when they had crucified him, took his garments, (and they made four parts, to every soldier a part,) and also his coat. Now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. They said then one to another: Let us not cut it, but let us cast lots for it, whose it shall be; that the scripture might be fulfilled, saying: They have parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture they have cast lots. And the soldiers indeed did these things. [John 19:23-24] While the True Church is yet alive fulfilling its place in scripture, are the 'many churches' casting lots for what they think are remnants of Christ?

He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep. [John 21:17]. Who is feeding you?

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

only one can be 'TRUE' or they are all wrong and we can conclude there is no truth at all, thus no God.

.
That's a huge leap.

upon this rock [upon Myself] I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” [Matthew 16:18].

[JoeT777]

.
That's a huge leap.

Given any one thing (or substance), how many different truths do you suspect there are? Likewise, given any one doctrine, how many divine True doctrines are there?

As a result of your answer, can we now conclude there are multiple truths in Matthew 16:18; the one uttered by Christ and along side the one in which you inject your own subjectivity?

JoeT

[Alty]

Okay, the question is "What is church".

There is no right or wrong in church, or belief. It's not a be all end all, this is it or there's nothing else. There are millions of churches, hundreds of different beliefs and even those that have the same beliefs, don't agree on everything in that specific "belief" system.

Bottom line, Church is a building, an institution, a place where people of like minds gather. It's not an entity, it's not spiritual, it's just a building full of people that believe in the same thing. Church is nothing but a man made thing. Look in your bible. Did Jesus preach in a church? Did he pick who he'd bless, who he'd preach to? Nope. So what does your church really mean in the long run? It's just a building.

Belief is human based. If it were pure, the one and only, everyone one would agree on it. There would only be one church if that were the case, one belief, one way. The fact that there are so man different views on God and religion, so many different churches to support those beliefs, proves that this is all based on humans, and their beliefs, not "Gods".

No one religion is right. To say that your way is the only way, is taking the place of the very God you claim to worship. Until you're in his position you have no right to frown on other beliefs. You're not omnipotent, and never will be. So live your life, believe what you believe, go to the church of your choosing, and stop trying to prove that everyone else is wrong, because there's no proof to substantiate your beliefs, or anyone else's. Just live and let live!

[Riot]

Or to put it as my old pastor used to say: "Sunday is a meeting, the rest of the week is the service!"

[JoeT777]

Okay, the question is "What is church".

There is no right or wrong in church, or belief. It's not a be all end all, this is it or there's nothing else. There are millions of churches, hundreds of different beliefs and even those that have the same beliefs, don't agree on everything in that specific "belief" system.

I'm a bit confused by your statement. What you're suggesting is that God's truth is not absolute. Rather it seems to be suggested that God's truth is subject to the will of men.

We know that the Holy Spirit does not contradict God's absolute Truth. How then would the Holy Spirit guide these 'individual, all equal in truth, churches by revealing something different to each individually?

Could we not say that God and Truth are convertible? If God exists (see Summa Prima Q,2,3). Then does not an absolute Truth exist? God is Immutable (see Summa Prima Q,9, 1). Then is not an absolute Truth immutable? God is Eternal. “Now God is His own uniform being; and hence as He is His own essence, so He is His own eternity.” (see Summa Prima Q,10 2). Then is not Truth eternal? And we know that God is Spiritual (see Summa Prima Q,3,3 & 6). “…it follows that there is no accident in God.” Then is not Truth spiritual? So, when Christ says to go " Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world"; what is really meant is for each to teach a subjective "Truth" of all He commands?

Bottom line, Church is a building, an institution, a place where people of like minds gather. It's not an entity, it's not spiritual, it's just a building full of people that believe in the same thing. Church is nothing but a man made thing. Look in your bible. Did Jesus preach in a church? Did he pick who he'd bless, who he'd preach to? Nope. So what does your church really mean in the long run? It's just a building.

Church is indeed an institution of the Kingdom of God commissioned to teach His divine 'Truth' and to minister to the sacraments which are the means of salvation. The first of which is baptism, which is like entering the door of the Kingdom; you might say engrafted onto the vine. Those believing and entering the doorway through baptism "shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). It seems rather emphatic to me.

Belief is human based. If it were pure, the one and only, everyone one would agree on it. There would only be one church if that were the case, one belief, one way. The fact that there are so man different views on God and religion, so many different churches to support those beliefs, proves that this is all based on humans, and their beliefs, not "Gods".

No one religion is right. To say that your way is the only way, is taking the place of the very God you claim to worship. Until you're in his position you have no right to frown on other beliefs. You're not omnipotent, and never will be. So live your life, believe what you believe, go to the church of your choosing, and stop trying to prove that everyone else is wrong, because there's no proof to substantiate your beliefs, or anyone else's. Just live and let live!

Speaking of faith, we have a Scriptural model; "faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not." (Hebrews 11:1). As you alluded, faith is essentially to 'know'. Truth functions within the intellect acting in the processes of knowing, weighing and dissecting both the essence and the attributes of any supposition. And since God and Truth are convertible then we can also say a virtuous faith is to know Truth as well as to know the one God.

The alternative offered seems to be teaching a divine word fallibly which can only lead to chaos of doctrine; A chaotic body of knowledge producing a multitude of gods. Is this acceptable?

JoeT

[JoeT777]

Or to put it as my old pastor used to say: "Sunday is a meeting, the rest of the week is the service!"

Then is it proposed that 'Church' is "Sunday go to meeting"? I would suggest 'Church' is much more than that. I would suggest that 'Church' is the source of your salvation through the sacraments.

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

The Truth is love God and show love to others. If you want to speak in Biblical terms, this is the fulfilling of the OT Law and the sum of the NT Gospel message.

[talaniman]

Some don't need sacraments to have Good Orderly Direction, and be good humans. Some do. What's the difference?

[JoeT777]

The Truth is love God and show love to others. If you want to speak in Biblical terms, this is the fulfilling of the OT Law and the sum of the NT Gospel message.

Isn't that a Beatles song, "All you need is love"? Of what use is Church if, as the gospel song goes, "all you need is love"? What about the sacraments?

But, the real Gospel says we gain, "the manifold wisdom ofGod may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church" [Ephesians 3:10].

JoeT

[JoeT777]

Some don't need sacraments to have Good Orderly Direction, and be good humans. Some do. What's the difference?

The difference is the same between a desire and a command; Christ said "do this". We can claim to be His 'friend', we can claim Him as Lord, yet when He commands we say "I know better because I have no need"?

Sacraments are the visible signs of an inward grace received ordained by Christ for our salvation. They are "from the foundations of the world men have caught sight of his invisible nature, his eternal power and his divineness, as they are known through his creatures." [Romans 1:20]

JoeT

[paraclete]

the only question is what he meant when he said do this. What we have today in many places is not what he meant, we have a habit of dissecting scripture rather than taking it as a whole the sacriments are a case in point

[JoeT777]

the only question is what he meant when he said do this. What we have today in many places is not what he meant, we have a habit of dissecting scripture rather than taking it as a whole the sacraments are a case in point

Then you apply symbol where others might apply substance?

JoeT

[paraclete]

Not really, I take the simpliest intrepretation and don't see the purpose of augmentation into cerimony, we have not taken the scriputure as a whole

[talaniman]

Would not the sacraments apply just to the church that employees them? Indeed does not every church have their own unique and accepted ways of the truth? Or is your premise that everybody does it wrong because they do it differently?

[Wondergirl]

Then you apply symbol where others might apply substance?

The sacraments, prayers, hymns, choirs, sermons, the liturgy, genuflecting, and other rituals are simply bridges toward knowing, experiencing, and loving God and then as inspiration for extending His love to each other.

Church is Community. The substance is Love.

[JoeT777]

Not really, I take the simpliest intrepretation and don't see the purpose of augmentation into cerimony, we have not taken the scriputure as a whole

That is precisely what ceremony is, the simplest of worship, we see this in the whole of Scripture, both in the Old and New Testament. The perfection of communal prayer. It is the worship of God as a ‘whole’ person, body and soul; similarly the entire body of the Church as one. The substance of the soul is said to lie somewhere between the supernatural and the natural world. It animates the natural body and conducts the supernatural through itself into the body; the ‘fires’ of God illuminating the intellect, a quickening. The body and soul make up the whole person, just as our savior is both body and spirit who honored the Father as a Person. As His brothers we too express our devotion through the exterior express of ceremony to perfect body and soul (whole person) in worship.


Ceremony is part of the human nature, just as we ‘honor’ our supreme leader in ceremony, we give the latria or worship justly due God through ceremony. It perfects our powers of prayer and strengthening our worthiness to receive the graces contained in the Sacraments. It’s not augmentation it is a part of humanity.


JoeT

[JoeT777]

The sacraments, prayers, hymns, choirs, sermons, the liturgy, genuflecting, and other rituals are simply bridges toward knowing, experiencing, and loving God and then as inspiration for extending His love to each other.

Church is Community. The substance is Love.

Yes, the substance forming faith is charity, however the grace that forms charities received in sacraments are a reality and are far from symbolic or metaphoric bridges. And I would not suggest that liturgy and prayer are symbols.

JoeT

[talaniman]

I think anything that humans do in greater numbers and in unison creates some awesome energy.

[paraclete]

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, there is a corporate annointing that comes when faith is applied in greater numbers, but that faith must be directed, must be specific to be effective, rote prayers rob power from the application of faith