[Zea]

“-we still have the same old tired message, we are still full of judgment, we are still full of self righteousness and our works.”
People always judge others, before any one even approaches you, or even say a word to you. You would judge them according to their behavior. Most people do it so often that they become unaware of themselves when they do it. I think that many people find it tempting instinctively.
Not always judging in a mean way, though. Some just form opinions about their personalities.
I don't think that judging, if bad if good, can ever stop.

“People don't need to be told they are wrong and sinful. They know it.”
People like who? Age and background info matters to this subject.
Why not? SOME people, let's say, didn't have a happy childhood. For example, they were beat, never hugged, never heard a compliment, neglected etc. Would they know what is right from wrong? I don't think that they can recognize the difference between the two behaviors without any help and direction.

Jesus always looks to spend some time with those who are most sinful (ex: Zacchaeus) and many people complained that he should be doing the opposite. Jesus said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” He knows that some people are in need of some help.

If we, like you said, don't need to be told what is right from wrong then how do you raise your kids? How would the child turn when he/she grows up? They would be emotionally numb (likewise to an abused or neglected child).
You would be doing someone a favor if you let them know. Once, I helped a friend like this.

“And RIGHT believing will produce the proper behavior and right living automatically , effortless.”
What do you mean by “RIGHT believing”? Is it something that someone can do?
You make it sound so easy. What about Rasputin (and many other people)? He was so near to God, but couldn't resist the temptations to drink. Also, (I can't remember if this one was just a false/undecided accusation or a fact) he was involved sexually with numerous women. And he was supposed to be a monk too. He can't be in heaven now.

“Is it a religion, it is about self improvement?”
Yes and yes. Why self-improvement? Because, obviously, if you follow the commandments (don't kill, steal…) you would be a better person.

“-do we really believe we are ALL capable of every evil sin imaginable. OR do we think there is some GOOD in us apart from Jesus?”
Yes (anger, jealousy... make things happen) and maybe, IF he is the reason why you decide to change your life. Some people with different religions can be nice too.

“-do we stand in judgment of other Christians or do we realize in the right circumstance we can do the same evil sin.”
None of the above; why not lend a hand instead of watching? I promise some people don't know it when they do a wrong.

“What is Christianity to you?” Christianity is about treating others well for no reason just because everyone deserves it; we don't/shouldn't do it to be praised. We do it because God teaches us to be good hearted and loving even to those who don't treat us well or disrespect us. Jesus said, "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.”
Basically, Christianity is forgiving and forgetting. That is just one person's opinion.

[joypulv]

Maybe Dave can explain what always bothers me so much about Christian zeal as opposed to Christian living. It somehow ends up being a contradiction unto itself in it's desire to change the people it claims it isn't judging.

ClassyT, how is your son's young Muslim friend in jail?

[classyT]

SO! Oh my did you just say SO!

When you get past the gospels, Paul actually reveals to us that the commandments are the ministry of death. Take that in... that is shocking. He also lets us know that it was giving to make sin abound MORE. Take THAT in it is MORE shocking.

While the law is good and perfect it had no power to make man that way. I submit to you if we preached true Grace, Jesus Christ in our pulpits and stayed away from self and what WE need to do, we wouldn't have that same ol tired message. We wouldn't have a sin problem in our lives. Right believing produces right living. Grace is above sin and the law. Problem is... we preach Grace but we just throw the law in lest someone gets the idea that sin will increase. But that is not so. THE LAW was giving for that purpose.. not Grace.

Religion of all sorts can make people "good". We have had atheists come into the threads proclaiming they are good and decent people and do not need Christ. That in my opinion is because the same ol tired message is being preached. If we really understood GRACE... we could have a revival ( for lack of a better word) this world has never seen before. What Christ offers is complete forgiveness, utter peace, a way to the Father and a life of blessings, and best of all a person transformed effortlessly without trying. He gives us REST in a fitful world. Who doesn't want peace, rest, love, total acceptance without performing? Sigh.. maybe just me. I don't know. One more time... RIGHT BELIEVING produces RIGHT living effortlessly.

[classyT]

Zea,

I do have a response to you... must take my son to the ortho. I know you can barely contain yourself for my thoughts. Lol...

[classyT]

One last thought before I go to appt. There are two accounts in the bible close together. The story of zaccheaus and the rich young ruler. You know I always felt like the young ruler got a bad rap. All he was trying to do was be RIGHT in and of himself. And what does Jesus say... go sell all of your money and stuff. OUCH. It hurts me thinking of it. Then you look at the tax collector ( your basic grease ball) he is so interested in JESUS he climes a tree to hear him. He wants to know what this man is all about. You know the story... Jesus calls him down, goes to his house and before the man knows what hits him he is out giving people back money he stole. WHAT is the difference between these two? SELF.

The young ruler came throwing up how he kept the law and was all THAT. Zachy boy knew he was scum and needed to hear Jesus.

If that rich young ruler had sold everything and given them to the poor... do you really think that would have been enough... or do you suppose Jesus was trying to get him to see he couldn't do enough. It wasn't about HIS righteousness at all. It was coming to the end of himself, knowing he wasn't good and needed Jesus.

Those are my thoughts because WOW the difference in what the Lord says and does with these to men are night and day. It begs the question WHY!! Am I wrong?

[Wondergirl]

The Ten Commandments in the OT = Law
Jesus' Two Greatest Commandments = Grace in action

As Christians, we are blessed to be a blessing.

[classyT]

WG,
What does that even mean?? What is Grace in action... and how does it flesh out in day to day life? I haven't got a clue of how to love the Lord with all my heart and soul, let alone love my neighbor as myself!! I don't know how. Do you? Oh I know how to be nice on occasion but that isn't the same. I know how to worship and sing to the Lord and TRY real hard to be good... but that isn't the same.

Here is the deal
Jesus fulfilled the law... and he also taught the law in it's perfection. An example of this would be the sermon on the mount. WHO could live the sermon on the mount? Not me. That is one of the reasons you find Jesus coming down from that mount. Only he could live there and we needed him. Example: a leper ( breaking all kinds of laws, had no business being there... was there waiting for him)! It is no accident this happened right after the Lord's sermon. That dear leper shouldn't have there and around people. BUT... he understood JESUS was able to heal him. Now after that sermon one would think Jesus would let him know he broke all kinds of laws and sent him packing. But he didn't. He healed the man, THAT is grace. AND if the man had been a thief he would have done the same thing. People who hung out with Jesus CHANGED effortlessly.

I am NOT suggesting what Jesus said about the greatest commandments is wrong. I am saying point blank and very clearly it is IMPOSSIBLE for man to do. See Grace doesn't add to the law. Grace comes in and enables a person to live above it. This can only happen when we have a relationship with Jesus and we are taught about him.

My struggle right now is finding a church that will preach Jesus and his Grace. Instead I have been bombarded with what I need to do to get right... what GOD expects of me, of how to become less wordly. HELLO! We are missing the POINT. It is all about Jesus. And when we know we are not condemned, when we know he is for us, when we are shown his great love and mercy and awesomeness... we are transformed. That is my story and I am sticking to it. Anything less, is just self righteous acts and works... and God says ALL of that is like a filthy stinkin rag.

[classyT]

Joy,

I was so busy in my rants I didn't see your question. LOL

Oh dear it isn't good. That kid got the book thrown at him. I was a character witness but I didn't really help. What he did was wrong. They robbed a local drug dealer and figured he was a drug dealer so he probably wouldn't call the cops.

They couldn't prove a gun but he was convicted for armed robbery, AND kidnapping. KIDNAPPING! Blows me away. WHO feels safe leaving if they think there is a gun and most armed robbers don't get kidnapping added! Anyway he got 7 years. I write him. I wish I could help him other than sending him a few bucks to put in his jail account. I have such a heart for this young man. So young to have messed up his life. SEE! He needs GRACE... sigh. Thanks for asking

[Zea]

“-am I wrong?” No one can tell you that; unless you want me to introduce you to me thoughts.

“If that rich young ruler had sold everything and given them to the poor... do you really think that would have been enough... or do you suppose Jesus was trying to get him to see he couldn't do enough. It wasn't about HIS righteousness at all. It was coming to the end of himself, knowing he wasn't good and needed Jesus.”

You could be right. But there is another reason. Satan will crash you! He will make your worst nightmare come true, he will try you, to see if you would or not lose your faith. For instance, JFK's father lost his faith when his son died.
God will test your faith; everyone's; like he tested Job. Satan took his wealth, children, plagued him and left him with nothing. He still loved God with all his heart.
It's not about being able to sell your most valued materials. It's about being obedient to God, and being able to stay faithful to him no matter what the circumstances are (or requirements). And not blame him for someone's death, or whatever the situation, like JFK's father did.

“People who hung out with Jesus CHANGED effortlessly.” Sometimes, what about Judas Iscariot? We are given the freedom to choose like Adam and Eve were. (And they failed miserably).
It doesn't happen effortlessly.

“-when we are shown his great love and mercy and awesomeness... we are transformed.”
You are not shown anything. Admit it! Oil spills, wars, crimes…what good is there on earth to make someone believe? It's a choice you make to either believe or not.
Some don't believe until they see. This is a problem.

You're too optimistic; I'm painted with two colors, black and white.

[classyT]

Zea,



Fair enough on the Judas comment. I should have said people of FAITH who hang with Jesus are transformed. The choice to believe is always ours. If we believe in the finished work of the cross and we begin to understand grace... I do believe it is an effortless transformation. Unfortunately most of us are not transformed effortlessly because we don't understand it. We count up all the things we do that are right and good and we try to improve the areas we lack. That has been the Christian life and walk for 2000 years. I think it sucks!!

I disagree about the Satan comment. Remember: Right believing produces right living. We need to believe right about satan and his true position. Satan is a fallen foe this side of the cross. He can't touch the believer... the best he can do is throw the law at him, and condemn the believer and the rest is history. It has worked for years and years. The law and condemnation is his ONLY ammunition since the Lord rose from the dead. It is all he has. The minute a Christian really gets the Grace message Satan is out of business. That is why I think RADICAL Grace is under attack. Most Christians think if they teach what Paul taught.. where sin abounds, grace super abounds this will cause more sin. NOTHING could be more wrong. Jesus gave the woman caught in adultery the gift of no condemnation and THEN he said " go and sin no more. The good news is we really are free! God LOVES us... Jesus paid for every sin I did commit and all the ones I will commit. That doesn't bring about more sin, it brings about devotion to his awesome love. I believe there will be a revival. A new generation who actually believes and knows to their very core they are made righteous just by believing. There is such POWER in it.

Of course we are shown his love and
mercy. Pick up the bible and read from Genesis to revelation the greatest love story ever written. God redeeming man by sending his only son to pay for us so he can have relationship with us. That seems like an understatement. What Jesus did is overwhelming when you study it.
The bible says clearly it is the goodness of God that leads man to repent. If you want to know the Father's heart, simply read the story of the prodigal son. Most people are more interested in the brothers... but the Father is the real story. So I must disagree with you on that point. Of course there are natural disasters and horrible accidents. But I believe the Lord is above all of that. Until Jesus comes back the world is fallen and will continue to behave that way. But my God is able to keep me and protect me.

I am NOT that opitimistic. I simply have a good opinion of God. I believe the best about him. It is a personal relationship... If God is for me, WHO, WHAT shall me against me. We Christians have really struggled in this area. We do NOT believe the best about our Father.

Hey, I am not saying I have gotten it all myself. But I am learning. There is pain in this world but you know what? Jesus himself said to pray we are not led into temptations and that we would be delivered from evil. I think many things we go through are not what we HAVE to go through. We have simply not prayed. We are told we would have trouble in this life but our hope is that Jesus is above the trouble, he has overcome the world and he will see us through.

A positive expectation of GOOD... that is what I have. :)

sorry if I keep repeating myself. I struggle with this site it kicks me off as soon as I try to post, so I have to rewrite it and I get repetitive.

[Zea]

"A positive expectation of GOOD...that is what I have." LoL. So, in other words, you are defining yourself as optimistic. Hey, no worries! I can be like that sometimes too.

Sorry, I don't agree much, but I will stop here. I don't want to quote you again. I know you must hate it.

Let me just say this: Satan can too touch the believer.

Do you remember the night before Jesus was taken to be crucified? Jesus was praying and crying fearfully. Who is fear when God is the light?

Or the time he didn't eat or drink for 40 days and 40 nights. There was Jesus and there was the devil also looming around. I'm talking about the conversations and challenges they were having.

What about Mother Teresa? Was she not considered faithful? And yet again, while she was helping many people she got infected by diseases, but she still never stopped helping others.

Everything good that happens to someone is because of God. Satan is responsible for every bad thing. He is rage, jealousy, fear, etc. and God is none of that.
Adam and Eve who lived in paradise were touched! So why would you think someone on earth can't be?

This is the thing that distinguishes believers from others. They are both, Jesus and Mother Teresa, mentally firm. God will help them, but only when they fight their own battles. It's a choice; NO one will help you IF you first don't want to help yourself.

[classyT]

Zea,

I have tried to post so many replies but I always get the boot before I can send it. UGH... drives me nuts

I have many things to address but the main thing is I really think you are wrong when it comes to the Lord Jesus and fear.

He couldn't have been fearful in the garden before his death. And I can recall a time in my life when I read the account and came to that conclusion. But after reading and studying fear I know this was impossible.

What he was going through was serious duress. He knew what he was going to have to face and I don't believe it had anything to do with the physical pain. He understood he would become sin and that the Father would turn from him. I say that and still have no clue what it actually means.

The bible defines fear as a spirit. And we are told perfect love casts out all fear. Well Jesus is God and therefore perfect love. Jesus himself told us not to fear and in fact fear is lack of trust in God. So NO WAY satan got to Jesus with fear...

[Zea]

Pressure…? Yeah well, this subject is debatable.

If it was pressure, than someone who is under pressure would get to a breaking point where he/she just can't absorb anything more. The person, who is under pressure to make a quick decision, after getting shocked by reality, would want to eliminate himself/herself from the whole situation. Did Jesus ask God to release him from this heavy responsibility? Jesus said, “-my Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will”. You could be right.

Do you think that Jesus was afraid? I wouldn't believe it in a billion years! I think he was afraid to let his Father down. He wasn't afraid because he was going to be humiliated, tortured and left to die slowly. What do you think?

Or, was he afraid? Jesus also said to his disciples, “-the spirit is willing, but the body is weak.” He said this before he was crucified. Do you think he was talking about himself as well as them? Maybe…

…Or…

But what would leave Jesus feeling so intense? “And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.” Did Jesus really sweat blood? It's a real medical condition.

I just confused myself!

[Fr_Chuck]

If one just reads Paul's writings, to the Churches in the years after Jesus death, you will find we are exactly like the Church then, just bigger, there were churches, that had issues with false teachings, churches that were fighting among self, churches and so on,

There are always been and always will be issues, That is the point, you are allowing someone else to be in your way of your personal relationship. What and how others do, should not be your concern.

In fact the bible tells us that non beleivers will be right in with the believers in the church,

So it is this way, today, because this is the way it has always been

[jakester]

Hey classyT - I'm not sure if we are any different in our time and age from generations past in that we are having to confront the issues and questions of life afresh. Not that the issues and questions themselves are different, it's just that all of us are living life for the first time and we are learning about these things for ourselves.

Pride, arrogance, and self-reliance are all characteristics that describe every generation of Americans since the end of the 2nd World War. These characteristics seem to be growing in their intensity but maybe we aren't all that different from generations gone by... but for many, they can point to the growth of these things and say "times, they are a changin'".

The essence of Christianity has always been something that each generation of people since Christ's ascension has had to come to terms with. Who is God? What is he like? What is important to him? Trying to understand these things perfectly seems to take an entire lifetime... if we ever really get there. I do believe that at the foundation of a genuine believer in Christ, ought to exist a desire to more Christ-like. A desire to be more virtuous and good. And a humility that binds these things all together. In my opinion, humility is the glue that holds a person's desire for goodness and justice together with his recognition that he truly lacks complete goodness. We do good and we do evil. At best, we are ambivalent creatures... we are people who champion good and yet dive headlong into evil of all sorts. Many people do not recognize the evil that lies beneath their own hearts but those who are wise recognize it. An author of a great article I read once said this (I do not know his real name, only his blogname (Quintus Curtius):

"Civilization is a veneer, a mask attached to the face of the trousered ape which is man; and when the mask falls off, the beast behind it is revealed in all his brutishness."

Christianity shines more than any religion in that it unabashedly highlights the absurdities and outlandish behavior of its adherents. David, a man after God's own heart, is laid bare and is an example of both a great man of God and shameful and despicable person, depending on your frame of reference. But God evaluates a person as a whole, not entirely upon one bad act.

Christianity, unlike other religions, does not try to hide the fact that man is evil... it makes that point painfully clear for all to see. And Jesus' crucifixion is a visible reminder of what God thinks of human evil.

I think that many things could be said about what Christianity really is. I'll put in my two cents. To me it is about the Creator of all reality who is telling a story through the lives of his creatures, with Jesus being the main character. It is a story of man's rebellion and God's redemption. And it is ultimately a story that has a glorious ending with the characters celebrating the author of that story.

But I suppose it could take an book just to talk about what Christianity really is.

[Wondergirl]

But I suppose it could take an book just to talk about what Christianity really is.

Or it could be said in one compound sentence: Love God and, because of His love for you, love each other

[Zea]

"I have tried to post so many replies but I always get the boot before I can send it."

OK, I THINK that after you log in, go to the "Answer" key on the top of the page, click it, then click "Find today's questions", after that return here, type your response, and submit, and let's see if this can work.

[JudyKayTee]

"I have tried to post so many replies but I always get the boot before I can send it. UGH....drives me nuts"


ClassyT, I kept getting booted off on Saturday - I think maybe the site is being renovated (again)... or something.

Would type out my whole reply, hit "submit answer" and... nothing. Go back to the question, there it was - without my answer.

I know, frustrating - and your answers are always well thought out. To have to write a second time - ugh!

A Moderator once told me to write the long ones off site and then cut and paste them - a thought.

[hauntinghelper]

MY point, is that everybody wants to point out problems in the church and what "Jesus would have really done". MY point was that no, we haven't lost true Christianity anymore than the first church had. There will always be those within the church that have a self righteous attitude, and those who live one way and differently on Sunday. As was back then, there will always be those who twist scriptures for their own gain, or completely miss the point of the scriptures altogether. But real Christianity still remains.

Real Christianity is found in the little old lady who was robbed in the parking lot of a Walmart and not only led him to a relationship with Christ but GAVE him her money in His name. Real Christianity is the person who, by faith, leads an individual in prayer in a doctors office where within days the person is found to now be cancer free. Real Christianity is putting a leper in the front row of your third world country church and preaching acceptance and healing to them even though everyone else is afraid to. Real Christianity is found in the simply acts of obedience and love that Christ calls for us to do in His name. Not one of us is perfect in the church... but we do have perfection IN us through Christ.

[classyT]

Haunting,

Loved your post and you are right. I guess I just so want there to be more real Christianity because people are watching. They want to see something different and real. I have been guilty myself of being self righteous.. so I'm not judging. Thanks for your response.