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Catsmine · Apr 24, 2013, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

no way do I or will I condone this cult.

Do you condone the symbolic cannibals that follow Yesua ben Joseph, or the slavemasters of Muhamed, or the thugees of Kali? Every religious belief is, by definition, illogical and based on faith. Non-believers find some doctrine of every faith abhorrent. IT WAS STILL A CHURCH!

Every single aspect of the raid was of questionable constitutionality and even more questionable procedural legality. Then they brought in M-48 Patton tanks to destroy the buildings, gas the civilians, and grind the Constitution under their treads.

tomder55 · Apr 24, 2013, 04:39 AM

Why waste your time making up childish words?

I can't help it if you are obtuse . You had to know that my comments were about the Clintons . Again ;feel free to ignore my comments if you think it's childish . I won't loose any sleep over it.

tomder55 · Apr 24, 2013, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by Catsmine

Do you condone the symbolic cannibals that follow Yesua ben Joseph, or the slavemasters of Muhamed, or the thugees of Kali? Every religious belief is, by definition, illogical and based on faith. Non-believers find some doctrine of every faith abhorrent. IT WAS STILL A CHURCH!

Every single aspect of the raid was of questionable constitutionality and even more questionable procedural legality. Then they brought in M-48 Patton tanks to destroy the buildings, gas the civilians, and grind the Constitution under their treads.

Exactly .

paraclete · Apr 24, 2013, 04:45 AM

No argument it was handled badly

NeedKarma · Apr 24, 2013, 05:23 AM

IT WAS STILL A CHURCH!

Do you find no different between a church and a cult? It's far too simplistic to simply call it a church (even in all-caps and bolded :-))

"According to the paper, Koresh declared he was entitled to at least 140 wives, that he was entitled to claim any of the females in the group as his, that he had fathered at least a dozen children and that some of these mothers became brides as young as 12 or 13 years old.[19]

In addition to allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct, Koresh and his followers were suspected of stockpiling illegal weapons."

They were being investigated for that and then all hell broke loose.

tomder55 · Apr 24, 2013, 05:44 AM

suspected of stockpiling illegal weapons

that were not found . They also thought he was running an illegal meth lab... not true either . The guns they owned were legal and legally purchased . The ATF knew that in advance.

Regardless of their suspicions... nothing he was accused of justified a military tank and chemical warfare assault on the compound. It was "over-kill " and illegal under the Posse Comitatus Act .

Koresh invited the ATF to come to the compound in order to look and see what ever they wanted. They refused . Even if they wanted to arrest him ,they could've without incident .Instead they stormed the compound guns blazing . 4 ATF agents (who in a previous job had been body guards of Bill Clintoon ) were killed... probably by friendly fire. That's when the stand off began.

Do you find no different between a church and a cult? It's far too simplistic to simply call it a church (even in all-caps and bolded :-))

The words “cult” and “sect” are used any time the government want to cast suspicion on or discredit a particular church group.

NeedKarma · Apr 24, 2013, 05:53 AM

The words “cult” and “sect” are used any time the government want to cast suspicion on or discredit a particular church group.

You may be OK with one man staking claim on all women in a church group and having sex with 12 year olds but I'm not. That's why this isn't such a one-sided argument as you make it out to me.

excon · Apr 24, 2013, 05:55 AM

Hello NK:

They were being investigated for that and then all hell broke loose.

Nahhh.. They were being ASSAULTED and all hell broke out. And, the government lost. That pissed 'em off. They're going to SHOW this guy, and they did.

I don't care what he was accused of.

Excon

NeedKarma · Apr 24, 2013, 06:00 AM

I don't care what he was accused of.

I guess that's where we differ.

excon · Apr 24, 2013, 06:09 AM

Hello again, NK:

I guess that's where we differ.

I care about what he DID - not what he was ACCUSED of. They're NOT the same.

We'll never KNOW what he did, IF he did anything.

Excon

Catsmine · Apr 24, 2013, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You may be ok with one man staking claim on all women in a church group and having sex with 12 year olds but I'm not. That's why this isn't such a one-sided argument as you make it out to me.

How much of a problem do you have with Muhamed claiming his divine right to marry as many wives as he can support, including the 9 year old Ayisha?

I repeat, non-believers find some aspects of all religious faiths abhorrent

talaniman · Apr 24, 2013, 08:00 AM

Even believers can find parts of other religions abhorrent. You go back far enough, they all have used their gods to justify bad inhuman behavior.

NeedKarma · Apr 24, 2013, 08:45 AM

I repeat, non-believers find some aspects of all religious faiths abhorrent

Yes and the reverse is true as well.

Islamists have their countries and I choose not to live there.

Catsmine · Apr 24, 2013, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Yes and the reverse is true as well.

Islamists have their countries and I choose not to live there.

But they want yours

paraclete · Apr 24, 2013, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Catsmine

But they want yours

Give them prosperity and they will not want to live anywhereelse. People only migrate for a few reasons, persecution, war and lack of opportunity

Catsmine · Apr 24, 2013, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by paraclete

Give them prosperity and they will not want to live anywhereelse. people only migrate for a few reasons, persecution, war and lack of opportunity

Sure.

From their scripture:

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

paraclete · Apr 25, 2013, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by Catsmine

How much of a problem do you have with Muhamed claiming his divine right to marry as many wives as he can support, including the 9 year old Ayisha?

I repeat, non-believers find some aspects of all religious faiths abhorrent

I find all aspects of the Muslim faith abhorrent

Catsmine · Apr 25, 2013, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by paraclete

I find all aspects of the Muslim faith abhorrent

Cannibalism, anyone?

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

tomder55 · Apr 25, 2013, 05:11 AM

The Eucharist is life. Cannibals eat what is dead

ebaines · Apr 25, 2013, 09:31 AM

tomder55 - you keep repeating several factual inaccuracies:

1. This was not a military action. The federal agents running the operaton were under the command of the ATF and later the FBI, both civilian agencies. Your characterization of "Delta Force and Army tanks and incendiary grenades" is inaccurate. They did use tanks from the National Guard to punch holes in walls of the bulding, but to say that this made it a military assault is inaccurate.

2. The tear gas was not "incendiary." There is strong evidence that the fires were actually set by someone inside the building - the fire erupting almost simultaneously in multiple locations points to something other than a spark from tear gas. In any event there is no evidence that the government agents purposefully set fire to the building.

3. You say there was no reason for a raid, that they were just a harmless cult that should have been left alone. I suspect that the relatives of the four men they shot would disagree. Don''t forget that after those shootings the agents urged them to come out for 51 days before the assault began.

I'm not making excuses for what was obviously a botched operation. But to claim that this "killed the country" is bizarre.