[Wondergirl]

His resurrection from the dead was witnessed by many hundred people.

That is simply not true and is not biblical.

[Curtis Wilson]

That is simply not true and is not biblical.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

[Wondergirl]

His resurrection from the dead was witnessed by many hundred people.

No one witnessed His resurrection from the dead. No one was there when it happened. He was seen in the days following.

[Curtis Wilson]

No one witnessed His resurrection from the dead. No one was there when it happened. He was seen in the days following.

You seem to be a little confused as Jesus,s resurrection was still in progress, it was not yet complete, so yes they did witness his resurrection.

[Curtis Wilson]

We know God is omniscience, all knowing. He knows things before they happen, right? Did you know there are some things that God does not know? At least there are things God choses not to know on purpose! Why does He do this? What ever God See's is what's is going to happen. We need to see what God sees, and then we need find out what God does not know, and not know them also!

(Psalms 34:15) The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. (Psalms 34:16) The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

When the face of the Lord is against you, you are in deep trouble, and that's because he does not like what he sees. He, the Lord cuts off the remembrance of those that do evil. They are no longer in his thoughts, or his sight! What he sees in them is not what he likes, so he cuts the memory of them off, but he keeps his eyes on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayers. Jesus mentions this in the Gospels...

(Mathew 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mathew 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mathew 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is a picture of a all knowing God choosing not to know certain people in the Church because of what the Lord saw them doing! You get what you see. If we only see this world and what's happening here, we are not causing a change to happen. We must see the mountain removed and cast into the sea! We must see God's Kingdom, and keep our eyes fixed on it. God gets what he sees by faith and that is why he on purpose chooses not to see something's in this world. He does not like what he sees, therefore he cuts them off from his sight and memory!

2Peter 3:9-13
(9) The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
(10) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
(11) Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
(12) as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
(13) But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. (NIV Bible)

As we the Church begin looking forward by faith (using our spiritual eyes that have been enlightened) to this actual day of the Lord, we speed His coming! As every Saint of God uses their vision of this day, we will cause the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements to melt by this fiery faith of ours. Now that's change we can believe in! It's the spiritual world that controls the physical world, not the other way around. The Church today is just sitting around waiting to see what's going to happen, waiting to get a glimpse of Jesus returning to earth. Lets see what's going to happen some day, so look busy. Now that's total unbelief of the worse kind! That's how the world works. We had better wake up and begin to see things by faith, if we are going to bring Gods Kingdom here to earth.

Things don't just happen on there own! Jesus's return to earth is not something that is just going to happen someday. God's heavenly Kingdom coming to earth will not just happen on its own! There has to be a cause, something must cause this to happen. Jesus is not coming back for His Church until His bride has prepared herself, we all have to be looking forward for this event! Remember, Jesus told his followers to pray that his Kingdom come, his will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. We the Church are responsible for Jesus return, and His Kingdom coming here. If we do not look at or see by faith these events happening, they will never happen! God does know it will happen, and he knows the time of its fulfillment, we don't, but we should know. We are the children of the light and not of darkness. Walking in the light gives us a heads up to what's happening in Mount Zion the City of the living God. We are citizens of this city, our names are written in it's registry! Darkness is not knowing when, and it will overtake many by surprise. Faith never has surprises, it always gets what it expects! If something unexpectedly comes into your life, I would question weather it is from the Lord as faith never has surprises. Only those who walk in darkness are surprised when things happen unexpectedly. Those who walk by faith always get exactly what they expecting!
If we want to get Gods undivided attention, then we need to walk by faith. We need to stop looking at what's going on in this world ( cut it off), and begin seeing what we want to happen, looking at the unseen, Use the measure of faith that the Lord has given us and begin to see Gods Kingdom that can be seen by faith. Lets bring this Kingdom to earth as we are suppose to.

Curtis

[Wondergirl]

You seem to be a little confused as Jesus,s resurrection was still in progress, it was not yet complete, so yes they did witness his resurrection.

Sorry, but you are incorrect. Jesus was fully resurrected when he was seen for the first time. (Are you saying some body parts were still unresurrected? That's what it sounds like.) He had not yet ascended to His Father.

[ScottGem]

My main message is about the word of the Kingdom. The same message Jesus proclaimed during his physical life on earth. Jesus only taught what his Father instructed him to teach. The main difference between Christianity and other beliefs is Jesus claimed to be God, and he is the only one to have risen up from the dead. His resurrection from the dead was witnessed by many hundred people. No other religion claims that. So what do you believe? Do believe in Jesus Christ as your Saviour? If not why?

Curtis

What I believe is irrelevant to this discussion except to say that I do not share your beliefs. And that is the main point here. These are YOUR beliefs. They may be shared by many people, but they are not universally shared.

You base your beliefs on what is written in the Bible. But the Bible was written after the fact. So your beliefs are based on your faith in those words. I am very happy for you that you find comfort and solace in believing those words. But please do not present them as established fact. You can cite chapter and verse as much as you want, and I could cite different chapter and verse that can contradict them. There are loads of contradictions in the Bible.

But the bottom line is you have your beliefs, I have mine. You are welcome to yours, just as I should be welcome to mine. But you make a mistake by proselytizing and trying to impose your beliefs on others. Feel free to state what you believe and why, but don't presume to tell me what I should believe.

[Curtis Wilson]

Sorry, but you are incorrect. Jesus was fully resurrected when he was seen for the first time. (Are you saying some body parts were still unresurrected? That's what it sounds like.) He had not yet ascended to His Father.

Not until Jesus was seated on the right hand of power was his resurrection comleted. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit on pentecost which transformed scared apostles into fearless wittnesses for him was the proof of this.

Curtis

[Curtis Wilson]

What I believe is irrelevant to this discussion except to say that I do not share your beliefs. And that is the main point here. These are YOUR beliefs. They may be shared by many people, but they are not universally shared.

The fact of the matter is you base your beliefs on what is written in the Bible. But the Bible was written after the fact. So your beliefs are based on your faith in those words. I am very happy for you that you find comfort and solace in believing those words. But please do not present them as established fact. You can cite chapter and verse as much as you want, and I could cite different chapter and verse that can contradict them. There are loads of contradictions in the Bible.

But the bottom line is you have your beliefs, I have mine. You are welcome to yours, just as I should be welcome to mine. But you make a mistake by proselytizing and trying to impose your beliefs on others. Feel free to state what you believe and why, but don't presume to tell me what I should believe.

What I believe is not a wish, or am I hoping they are fact. To me they just as real as anything I can see or touch in this physical world. It would be very unwise for anyone to believe in something with out any type of evidence or proof. Faith is not hoping, or wishing. It always has evidence to the fact. If I can not see it, feel it, taste, hear it and or touch it in the spirit, I don't believe it!! It is not my job to try and force anybody to believe what I say. I simply speak what I know as true. If you are feeling that I am forcing you into believing my views, I can assure you that its not me you are sensing this from. Truth can stand on its own with out my help.

Curtis

[ScottGem]

What I believe is not a wish, or am I hoping they are fact. To me they just as real as anything I can see or touch in this physical world. It would be very unwise for anyone to believe in something with out any type of evidence or proof. Faith is not hoping, or wishing. It always has evidence to the fact. If I can not see it, feel it, taste, hear it and or touch it in the spirit, I don't believe it!!! It is not my job to try and force anybody to believe what I say. I simply speak what I know as true. If you are feeling that I am forcing you into believing my views, I can assure you that its not me you are sensing this from. Truth can stand on its own with out my help.

Curtis

Again, to YOU they are as real as anything. But to me they are not. I don't accept what is written in the Bible (either Old or New Testament) to be acceptable as incontrovertible truth as you seem to.

And no, Faith does not always have "evidence to the fact". In fact, one definition of Faith is belief that is not based on proof. Faith | Define Faith at Dictionary.com

So what this boils down to is your beliefs based on your Faith in what the Bible says. Now, most of what you have done here is ask questions and when others post their beliefs in answer to those questions you debate them and offer biblical cites to back up your position. That is indeed trying to convince people to believe what you believe. If this wasn't your goal, then you would post your questions in the form of; This is what I believe and why, what can you tell me to counter those beliefs. But that's not what you have done. Which leads to the conclusion that you have an agenda to convince people to believe what you do.

[Curtis Wilson]

Again, to YOU they are as real as anything. But to me they are not. I don't accept what is written in the Bible (either Old or New Testament) to be acceptable as incontrovertible truth as you seem to.

And no, Faith does not always have "evidence to the fact". In fact, one definition of Faith is belief that is not based on proof. Faith | Define Faith at Dictionary.com

So what this boils down to is your beliefs based on your Faith in what the Bible says. Now, most of what you have done here is ask questions and when others post their beliefs in answer to those questions you debate them and offer biblical cites to back up your position. That is indeed trying to convince people to believe what you believe. If this wasn't your goal, then you would post your questions in the form of; This is what I believe and why, what can you tell me to counter those beliefs. But that's not what you have done. Which leads to the conclusion that you have an agenda to convince people to believe what you do.

If we are going to define what faith is, then you have to go to where faith originated from. God's Kingdom is a faith based. Everything that is not of faith is sin to him. We know there is no sin in God's spiritual world, there fore it is a faith based Kingdom. This is what God says faith is.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Like I said earlier, it would be very unwise for someone to believe in something with out the evidence or proof as to why they believe.

The definition you posted is not the Bibles definition of faith. This is why the world thinks Christians are weak minded and are only hoping or wishing God is real. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If you knew how Jesus taught his followers, then you would understand why I ask questions in this type of forum. I will leave that up to you to find out why.

As for contradictions in the Bible, there are none. It is simply not understanding the scriptures that cause this conclusion. It was designed by God for that exact purpose. The Wisdom of God is foolishness to the natural man, and the Wisdom of man is foolishness to God. Your physical mind is incapable of discovering spiritual truth, it has to be revealed by God. The mind only believes what you tell it to believe. You can believe a lie if you want to. It happens all the time to those who do not know the Lord.

Curtis :)

[Wondergirl]

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

That is exactly what ScottGem said.

The definition you posted is not the Bibles definition of faith.

Yes it is, and the same as what you have posted.

If you knew how Jesus taught his followers, then you would understand why I ask questions in this type of forum. I will leave that up to you to find out why.

So you admit you are "teaching" us, not asking legitimate questions.

This is what Socrates did too. From Wikipedia, "The Socratic method searches for general, commonly held truths that shape opinion, and scrutinizes them to determine their consistency with other beliefs. The basic form is a series of questions formulated as tests of logic and fact intended to help a person or group discover their beliefs about some topic... or to help them further their understanding, [and] is called the method of maieutics."

The only problem with your method is that you maintain you are the only one whose interpretation of the Bible and understanding of it is correct.

As for contradictions in the Bible, there are none.

Of course there are. Consider the order of Creation, how many children Michal had, who came to Jesus' empty tomb, and many other inconsistencies and contradictions.

[classyT]

Now see, I am reading through this thread and I feel like you all are still picking on Curtis. You know Fred or his name on here was I think.. Acura asked these type of questions to get conversations going. I remember he was the first post I ever answered. He asked if Jesus was God? Now he wasn't asking because he didn't know... he asked to start conversations. I like it. In fact the Christian forum was kind of dead and now we are all back discussing, getting irked ( ha ha that was more for ME than anyone else) and diving into the bible to find out what it is we really believe.

WG-

It may very well be true Curtis thinks he is correct in his interpretation of the bible. But in all fairness I have run into several people on this site who believe that to. I won't name names but you know who you are. ( I may actually be one of them, although I have changed my mind a few times)

Curtis,

To answer your question I would say NO WAY. The Lord knows everything. We are told he doesn't remember everything ( our sins when they are put away by the blood of Christ) but he knows it all.

I will take this a step further. When Jesus told his disciples that even HE didn't know the day or the hour of his return but only the Father, I believe that as the son of man here on earth he didn't know... BUT as God in heaven he most certainly does. Now some may wonder how that can be? I don't know.. I don't know how God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all the same person. But I believe it to be truth.

[Wondergirl]

WG-

It may very well be true Curtis thinks he is correct in his interpretation of the bible. But in all fairness I have run into several people on this site who believe that to. I won't name names but you know who you are. ( I may actually be one of them, although I have changed my mind a few times)

Those of us who question his motives have had years of Bible study with peers, professors, and Bible scholars, and have done massive amounts of research. As far as we have been told, Curtis is doing solitary study and interpretation--not a good mix for clear thinking and understanding of very complex concepts.

[Curtis Wilson]

Those of us who question his motives have had years of Bible study with peers, professors, and Bible scholars, and have done massive amounts of research. As far as we have been told, Curtis is doing solitary study and interpretation--not a good mix for clear thinking and understanding of very complex concepts.

I think you and I very similar in our ways. I sense that to you, I am kind of like a fly that is constantly bothering you, and no matter what you do, it keeps coming back. The difference between you and I is you are a very educated, smart person concerning the Bible. As for me I am about as dumb as a pile of rocks. I depend totally on God's mercy and grace for teaching me his word. I perceive because of your education and intellect you don't need any body to tell you what the says. For me I do not depend on any mental abilities, only what's in my heart. So I reject things that don't agree in my heart, and as for you, you reject things that just don't make sense

Curtis

[paraclete]

Back to the theme of this thread, you have to allow God to be God, that is, his focus is different to ours, more long term, less immediate.

He has to juggle the interrelationship between billions of individuals here on Earth as well as whatever else he is engaged in. He settled the question on Earth long ago, so everything doesn't require his intervention, he has delegated something's to us

[ScottGem]

As for me I am about as dumb as a pile of rocks. I depend totally on God's mercy and grace for teaching me his word. I perceive because of your education and intellect you don't need any body to tell you what the says. For me I do not depend on any mental abilities, only whats in my heart. So I reject things that don't agree in my heart, and as for you, you reject things that just don't make sense

Curtis

Then why purport to be a teacher when you are only telling us what is in your heart? Again, if you want to tell us what you believe feel free. But don't try to convince us that your way is the only way as you seem to be doing.

[Curtis Wilson]

Then why purport to be a teacher when you are only telling us what is in your heart? Again, if you want to tell us what you believe feel free. But don't try to convince us that your way is the only way as you seem to be doing.

"if you want to tell us what you believe feel free"

Thank you

[Curtis Wilson]

When the Lord God sees something he does not like, he removes the memory of that in his heart. He cast them down. Why? Because he does not want to give life to it.

Psa 34:16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

This is why Jesus said …

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God himself chooses not to know certain things, that he dislikes. He does not even remember them! As Jesus is saying today, “I never knew you”. So there are some things that God does not know!
If God does not know certain things then we ourselves need to find out what does not know, and not know them also.
Someone might say, God infinite, we can not know God fully! That is 100% not true. How can we not know God fully, if we have the mind of Christ? “No one knows the thoughts of a man except the mans spirit that is in him, even so no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

When someone is filled with the Spirit of God, they are in fact filled with Gods thoughts!!

Don t tell me we can not know all there is about God. His ways are our ways, his thoughts are our thoughts, his focus is our focus! If you believe other wise, then you will never know Him. Its time to repent, wake up and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.

Curtis

[Wondergirl]

I think you and I very similar in our ways.

That's a very interesting observation. How about let's do this. You or I think of challenging questions about the things in the Bible, especially things that are not explained or even mentioned. Then let's post a simple question and get input from other members to find out how people think. After all, isn't it really educational and interesting and productive to our Christian discernment to find out what classyT or dwashbur or Athos or even ScottGem thinks and believes and why they do? And then you and I as the asker can say what we think and believe plus post Bible verses to support (if there are any), but the big challenge will be to keep our answer brief and to the point. That will encourage others to ask questions.

For instance, one question I have had for years is how old will we be in heaven. The Bible says we will be in our own bodies and recognize each other, but what about those who died as babies or children? Will they too be in heaven--as babies or as grownups? Once I read somewhere that we will all be 33 years old in heaven, the age at which Jesus was crucified. Don't you think questions like that would be more fun to discuss than the unhappiness we have going so far on this board?