[Curtis Wilson]

Is the presence of God with us, the same thing as being in his presence?

[classyT]

Curtis,

You and your questions.. ha ha. Hmmmm? I think so. He is always with us, in us. And we at anytime can come boldly to the throne of grace into his presence. I think the difference is in perception and understanding it. Just a thought

[Curtis Wilson]

God's presence with us is not the same thing as we being in God's presence. God is every were, he is omnipresent. There is no place were he is not. Why would we need to travel or come into his presence
If he is right here with us right now?”. That's a very good question, and we need Wisdom from God to understand these things fully, because if we don't we will miss out on some tremendous blessings from the Lord about our heavenly Father, in how he lives.

Psa 139:7-8
(7) Whither shall I go from thy spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Jer 23:23-24
(23) "Am I only a God who is nearby?" announces the LORD. "Am I not a God who is also far away?
(24) Can anyone hide in secret places so that I can't see him?" announces the LORD. "Don't I fill heaven and earth?" announces the LORD. (NirV)

God is speaking here, and it appears that he is saying that he is a God that is nearby, and not a God who is far away, but that is not true. There are two questions being asked here, and the answer to both of them is the same. Yes, God is a God who is near, and yes, he is a God that is far away. The word “NOT”, has the same kind of meaning as if I would ask my son. “Christopher am I not your father?” Of course the answer to that would be yes. I will show you how this is possible. It is very important we understand how this is.

Isa 57:19
(19) Then the people of Israel who are sorry for their sins will praise me. I will give perfect peace to those who are far away and those who are near. And I will heal them," says the LORD. (NIrV)

These few verses tell us that God is omnipresent, he is every were. Yet not only is he near us, but also far away. How can that be? You can not be near, and far at the same time, can he? There are many
Scriptures in the Bible that describe this, these are only a few. Once we understand how God is, and he is the one who instructs us on this, we will see how God is near, and also far at the same time. If God is only near us (and he is near) then we need to answers these questions.

Hebrews 4:15-16
(15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
(16) Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

If God was near us, then why would the word of God tell us to come to the throne of grace, (which is not of this world) if he was already near us?

Psalms 43:3-4
(3) O send out Your light and Your truth, let them lead me; let them bring me to Your holy hill and to Your dwelling.
(4) Then will I go to the altar of God, to God, my exceeding joy; yes, with the lyre will I praise You, O God, my God!

If God was near us ( there is no doubt that he is), then why does this scripture ask God,” to send out his light and truth” so as to lead and bring us to his holy hill?

There is nothing that can separate us from the love of God as the Apostle Paul tells us in Roman
8:38.

Rom 8:38-39
(38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
(39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Heb 4:12-13
(12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
(13) Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Once we become a child of God he sends his Spirit to dwell within us. His presence will always be with us whether we feel it or not. He promises us that nothing shall be able to separate us from his love and presence. His presence is all seeing, nothing is hidden from his eyes, he sees right through all things unto the intents of the human heart. In the book of Revelations there is a chapter that talks about a time when God's judgment comes, and men will cry out for the rocks, and mountains to fall fall upon them. They want to be hid from the face of him who sits on the throne, but that will not help them at all as God's light shines through every thing. (Rev 6:16)

God's presence with us is not the same thing as we being in God's presence! The Lord desires not only his presence to be with us, but he desires also our presence to be with him!

Mathew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mathew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward
Me is taught by the precept of men:

We can have the presence of God with us and yet have our hearts
Far from him! This is a great mystery and we need to understand it if we are to grow in Christ, and be partakers of God's divine nature. Remember back in Romans Chapter 1:20

Rom 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God created this physical world with the intent to fashion it similar to the spiritual world. Man now has a huge visual aid to help him understand his Kingdom, and not only his Kingdom but even how God is! “..even his eternal power and Godhead...”
What is it that God created in this physical world that represents God in the spiritual world? Lets read a few scriptures that reveal that to us.

Mathew 17:1-2
(1) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
(2) And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Revelations 21:22-23
(22) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
(23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

John 8:12
(12) Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Psalms 84:11
(11) The LORD God is like the sun that gives us light. He is like a shield that keeps us safe. The LORD blesses us with favor and honor. He doesn't hold back anything good from those whose lives are without blame. (NIrV)

We just read that Jesus said,” he was the light of the world”. In the book of revelations Jesus (lamb of God) replaces the light of the sun, and moon, and lights up the Kingdom of God. On the mountain of transfiguration, Jesus's face shined like the sun in its strength. The Lord is like the sun... (Psalms 84:11)
What do you think God,s revelation to man is in the physical world? The sun is not God, but it is a representation of how God is in his eternal Kingdom. There were people along time ago that use to worship the sun as God, and I am sure there are people today that still do. The Word of God tells us,

Romans 1:22-25
(22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
(23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
(24) Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
(25) They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

The sun is not God, it is a created thing and is not to be worshiped. We are to worship him who created it! I want you to think on this in your heart. Imagine yourself out side on a clear sunny day. You can feel the warmth as the light rays from the sun strike your face, and it causes you to be able to
See physical things in this world. Yet the sun is at rest in one place in the sky, its not moving, but at rest. That light you sense on you is representative as the presence of God with you. There is no place you can go to get away from it. “There is nothing hidden from the eyes with whom we have to do!”
God's light penetrates everything, just like the sun rays in this world. That's his presence with us, we reflect his Glory, and we can sense it with us, and on us! But remember, the sun has only one originating place in the sky. It is not every were, but in one spot only. Yet its light shines every were in our solar system. It has an impact on all things. God's presence is every were, but his originating
Source is in only one place. All light has to have an originating place from were it comes from. God's manifestation of his being (Glory, light) is revealed only in one place and one place only! God does not dwell in houses made with hands, He dwells only in the house he himself has built!

Psalms 132:13-14
(13) For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
(14) This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

Psalms 102:16-17
(16) For the LORD has built up Zion; He has appeared in His glory.
(17) He has regarded the prayer of the destitute, And has not despised their prayer.(NAS77)

The Lord has built Mt Zion for his habitation. This is the place of his rest forever. Yes, God's presence is every were, but he himself dwells only in one place! God is near, and he is also far. That is why he tells us to come boldly to his throne of grace. He desires our presence to be with him as his presence is with us.

Curtis :)

[classyT]

Curtis,

Curtis, curtis, curtis. You have to explain things to me like a two year old. I don't get it?

What do you mean he built Mt. Zion for his habitaion? Surely you don't mean physcally.

Mt. sinai represents the law... Mt. Zion grace. We live under God's grace this side of the cross.

I don't understand what you are trying to tell me. Very slowly explain and don't put a bunch of spiritual spin in there. Lest I get completely confuzzled and never get it.

( P.S. you say we can't get away from the sun... but that is because you don't live in OHIO. Trust me, I haven't seen it in days which could be contributing to my lack of brain power.. ha ha)

[dwashbur]

( P.S. you say we can't get away from the sun...but that is because you don't live in OHIO...)

Or Seattle!

[classyT]

Dave,

But lack of sunshine isn't what give you a lack of brainpower... you just don't know nuttin... ha ha.. ( kidding of course... dawlinc)

[jakester]

I love the Curtis Wilson's of the world... I know your type, sir.

You ask a question not because you want an answer but to draw people into a theological treatise which amounts to a monologue on your part... it's like you're waiting for someone to answer just so you can say "step aside now, and let a grown man finesse this one, youngin'." I'll never understand people like you. You're certainly not the first person nor the last person to come through this site and feel justified is doing this stuff. I just wish that you weren't so full of pretense and that you would just advertise that you are here to peddle your theology and interested in changing people's mind, rather than posing as someone genuinely interested in asking questions to the community. I believe you aren't interested in knowing anything from anyone here. Smh.

Peace, Mr Wilson.

[Wondergirl]

In the book of Revelations there is a chapter

It's Revelation with no "s". If you can't get this right.. .

[classyT]

Jake,

I think Curtis means well... but I believe you have his number. I thought the same thing but I was much to shy to say it. :D lol

[dontknownuthin]

Curtis, it's not that complicated and while it's great you can cite a lot of Bible passages, I doubt many people will read that whole treatise.

The Bible is clear - God is with us and we are with Him. He has given us free will. He's here, and it's for us to take notice and accept Him if we choose to do so. How present he is in our life depends on us - we determine how much we consider and include him in our decisions, actions, thoughts - whether we try to understand and follow through on His lessons or instead just live in oblivion.

I agree that you clearly had the answer to your own question in mind before you asked the question, so am not sure why you bothered to pose it.

[Curtis Wilson]

Curtis, it's not that complicated and while it's great you can cite a lot of Bible passages, I doubt many people will read that whole treatise.

The Bible is clear - God is with us and we are with Him. He has given us free will. He's here, and it's for us to take notice and accept Him if we choose to do so. How present he is in our life depends on us - we determine how much we consider and include him in our decisions, actions, thoughts - whether we try to understand and follow through on His lessons or instead just live in oblivion.

I agree that you clearly had the answer to your own question in mind before you asked the question, so am not sure why you bothered to pose it.

Did you ever notice that Jesus always asked a lot of questions of his disciples, and apostles. Did he do that so he would learn something? No. He already know the answer to every question he asked. This was his method of teaching. Why? Jesus knew the only person who could teach (give revelation) to his followers of who he (Jesus) was is his Father! God lives by his own precepts as it is written,

Prov 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

Only God the Father can give a man revelation to who Jesus is, and only Jesus can give revelation to man of who the Father is. There fore I ask questions not to learn something but as a way to teach others.

Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Those who are called to minister Gods Word must not speak on there on authority, or talent. I do not work in my own abilities to learn God's Word, I cry, and lift my voice for Wisdom unto my Lord and God, and he answers me with joy unspeakable and full of glory. That is how God works through me, and that is how the Father worked through Jesus.

John 12:49 "I did not speak on my own. The Father who sent me commanded me what to say. He also told me how to say it.

Who is he who disapproves of Gods way? Only he who wants to earn something by his own power, and knowledge learned only from the arm of the flesh!

Curtis

[Curtis Wilson]

[QUOTE=classyT;3410636]Curtis,

Curtis, curtis, curtis. You have to explain things to me like a two year old. I don't get it?

What do you mean he built Mt. Zion for his habitaion? Surely you don't mean physcally.

Mt. sinai represents the law... Mt. Zion grace. We live under God's grace this side of the cross.

I don't understand what you are trying to tell me. Very slowly explain and don't put a bunch of spiritual spin in there. Lest I get completely confuzzled and never get it.

I went a little off topic, I am trying to make it as simple as I can.

When you read the old testament it is filled with real physical things, like a real promised land that God gave unto the children of Israel. But that promised land is a type of the real spiritual Kingdom of God.
Joshua lead the children of Israel into that promised land. The name Joshua means “God Saves”. Jesus is the one leads us into God's Heavenly Kingdom. The name “Jesus” also means “God Saves” Joshua was a type of Christ. When God told Moses to build the ark of the covenant, it was a type of the real heavenly Holy of Holies. So everything in the old testament is a type of the real heavenly things.
When the Lord commanded the children of Israel to take possession of the promised land, they sent out spies to see what was there, and if they could take it. They came back with an evil report and said they could not posses the land because there were giants there and the cities had walls roundabout them. These cities, and giants were in the promised land that God gave them. Today God has already translated us into the Kingdom of his dear son. But in that Kingdom there is a city called Mt Zion the city of the living God. It is found in the Book of Hebrew.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion. You have come to the Jerusalem in heaven. It is the city of the living God. You have come to a joyful gathering of angels. There are thousands and thousands of them.
Heb 12:23 You have come to the church of God's people. God's first and only Son is over all things. God's people share in what belongs to his Son. Their names are written in heaven. You have come to God. He is the judge of all people. You have come to the spirits of godly people who have been made perfect.

We also find that it was God who built this city for his habitation. This is were God rests for ever because he finished all of works in the beginning.

Psa 132:13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
Psa 132:14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

We have been translated into God's Kingdom, yet in this Kingdom there is a city awaiting it occupants to enter through it gates and take possession of it (that is us) We can not enter its gates until you first eat from the tree of life. What does this tree give us? Wisdom and understanding of what the Lord has already given unto from the beginning. Jesus is the tree of life. He was made to be our Wisdom from God

1Co 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Wisdom is most important thing your life today. There is nothing in your life that can be compared unto her!! Strive for it with all your might, ask God for it, cry, and lift your voice for it every day of your life!!

Prov 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
Prov 3:14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
Prov 3:15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
Prov 3:16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
Prov 3:17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
Prov 3:18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.


Why are not people today experiencing this in there lives? Listen very closely to what I am about to tell you. God commanded Israel take possession of this promised land, but because of the giants, and fortified cities that were in the promised land they refused because of unbelief (faithlessness) Right now, today, God is once again commanding his Church to enter and take possession of his Holy City Mt Zion!


Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. Heb 4:8 For if Jesus (Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from hiHeb 4:7s. Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
We must enter into God's rest, Were does he rest? Mt Zion the city of the living God!!

Psa 132:13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
Psa 132:14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

Now this is why very few Christians are experiencing this today. The castles and fortresses that were in the promised land was a type of what most believers have in there minds today. They don't believe Gods word, they do not have the wisdom to have faith in this. Listen to the word of God...

2Co 10:4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 2Co 10:5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

The Church today is not tearing down these fortresses, that have been built in our minds. Instead of destroying them we have building them up and fortifying them stronger. That is why I detest any type of tradition of man, any thing that comes from tradition, logical, reason thinking is an enemy of God!! The religious leader today are guilty for what they are teaching the Church today. Jesus talked about the same thing in the new testament.

Mat 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.


That is why the Devil is fighting so hard to keep the Church bound up in unbelief. They won't enter into
God's city, they think it is for some day out in the sweet bye and bye. If we don't enter, the Lord will
Give it to the next generation, and not this one. Just like in the old testament, God waited until that
Generation died that disbelieved.

Sorry, I went a little long on this one

Curtis :)