[backpack2389]

I wasn't sure where to post this so I'm going to try it here. I just read "Pornified" by Pamela Paul (an anti-porn book). I would like to try to keep things balanced so I'm looking for a pro-porn book (discussing effects on society, psychology, etc. ) but I'm having trouble finding one. Anybody have any suggestions from things they've read?

[Catsmine]

The Joy of Sex, The Kama Sutra, the Torah, the Qur'an, Spare me the Roses, Give me the Thorns: these should give you a first approximation of the idea that 'sex is evil' is a recent invention. The sad part about this invention is so many people deny themselves their development as complete individuals because some preacher couldn't control himself (usually a him) so he had to preach that sexuality is evil.

[backpack2389]

The Torah and Qur'an? I have read parts of each and did not think any of them discussed porn, particularly in a positive manner. I'll have to take another look at those. I have read the Kama Sutra and the Joy of Sex. What I am searching for is something with some more research in it, statistics, expert analysis, and so forth that support porn as healthy in some way. The other book I read had TONS of statistical info and I was hoping to have something equal to compare it to.

[backpack2389]

A good percentage of the time that an individual posts a question about pornography on AMHD, that person's thread turns into a debate regarding the issue of porn. Given the popularity of this topic and it's unique ability to incite lively discussion, it seems only logical that it should be part of the member discussions forum. I, for one, am extremely interested in hearing other people's opinions regarding this topic as well as discussing some of my own.

A couple of the subtopics that have been getting a great amount of discussion lately are: child porn and porn actresses that look like children and whether porn is something you can ask a partner to reduce/quit viewing of when in a committed relationship.

One topic that I am particularly interested in and which has been barely touched upon is whether we have difficulty viewing this subject objectively because we tend to be divided on gender lines when discussing the different perspectives surrounding the situation.

Any thoughts anyone??

[joypulv]

I was thinking about this a lot today because of one particular post.
I am trying to sort out my questions into concrete ones for starters, such as:
How much is too much in a given time frame?
Should type of porn matter?
Is 'too much' partly a matter of how much the partner is neglected in terms of affection? Time together? Sex? And is there a way to measure neglect?
Is it acceptable to keep it secret, lie about it, and get angry at being discovered?

(Oops - I see a 'debate on porn' from 2009, with 176 replies.. )

[Catsmine]

If you want academic credentials to refute hers, try some of Dr. Ruth Westheimer's works or Dr. Sue Johnson's. You won't find much that deals specifically with pornography since most of the positive work about sexuality deals with the entirety of the concept instead of trying to place blame on one specific thing. Analogy is often suspect, but let me pose that Ms. Paul is trying to judge Shakespeare by a high school production of Kiss Me Kate.

[backpack2389]

I was thinking about this a lot today because of one particular post.
I am trying to sort out my questions into concrete ones for starters, such as:
How much is too much in a given time frame?
Should type of porn matter?
Is 'too much' partly a matter of how much the partner is neglected in terms of affection? time together? sex? and is there a way to measure neglect?
Is it acceptable to keep it secret, lie about it, and get angry at being discovered?

(Oops - I see a 'debate on porn' from 2009, with 176 replies..)

I should check that out. But I think it's valid to open a new discussion or at least add to the old one. People's opinions may have changed and/or the ways in which they express them. New people have joined. I would also like to engage in a discussion as much as read it and if I comment on something from four years ago, I'd hate to get the obligatory reminders of "This is so old. Please check the date....idiot."

I'm kind of bummed that the porn debate discussion got moved under the credible texts discussion instead of vice versa.

Regarding the 'neglect' part... I do believe that porn, even when used in a 'healthy' or 'normal' (which is exceptionally hard to define) manner can lead to more neglect than might be present otherwise. Part of what drives us to sex is the pure physical impulse to have it. If we find other outlets for that there's less of the drive to pursue the actual act of sex and thus there would be reduced amounts of intimacy than might be if porn were not a factor.

I think of it kind of like stopping to get fast food on the way home. If you don't have the option of getting it, you're going to always eat at home and, as a result, might eat healthier meals (have more intimacy with you partner). But if you can just pick it up quickly and move on, you're going to be full by the time you get home and might skip out on some of the healthier options. I'm not sure if this is an adequate analogy but its sort of how I would describe it.

[backpack2389]

If you want academic credentials to refute hers, try some of Dr. Ruth Westheimer's works or Dr. Sue Johnson's. You won't find much that deals specifically with pornography since most of the positive work about sexuality deals with the entirety of the concept instead of trying to place blame on one specific thing. Analogy is often suspect, but let me pose that Ms. Paul is trying to judge Shakespeare by a high school production of Kiss Me Kate.

How so? Are her sources unreliable? Biased? I was intrigued to see that she had her own research conducted for inclusion in the book.

When considering porn's role in society, I think the majority of the time it is either benign or malignant (based on what I have read so far). Benign in that it is present but is neither really helpful or hurtful. Malignant, it is actually damaging to a person's sexuality or it can undermine a relationship. That's why I would like to try to find something that explains it as actually being positive, having a measurable positive effect. I have read tons of research that discusses the negative effects of exposure and would like to now see some evidence suggesting otherwise. The lack of it either makes me think that my 'benign or malignant' hypothesis is true or that, for whatever reason, the research to investigate any positive effects has not and needs to be done.

I will definitely check out Westheimer and Johnson as soon as I finish the other 4 books I am currently reading. There's just not enough time to collect all the wonderful knowledge available to us.

[Catsmine]

Benign in that it is present but is neither really helpful or hurtful.

'Harmless' is only one definition of 'benign', and usually a secondary one. The primary (at Dictionary.com) indicates a positive influence. Bearing that in mind, your hypothesis of 'benign or malignant' is likely accurate for pornography as well as most aspects of life.

[Wondergirl]

I just went on FirstSearch which takes me to databases such as MEDLINE, ERIC, plus all sorts of scientific and general ones. I found a wealth of citations and articles, so my suggestion is that you go to your public library and ask reference to conduct a search for you. Books that might intrigue you will be found using good keywords in a search or two or three on WorldCat.

[joypulv]

I have not read books on the subject and don't want to read ones that moralize. Journals and abstracts are more likely, and internet porn is ever changing. Grants have to be obtained. People have to be willing to come forward to be studied.
Just from watching TV shows on the subject, I see partners who struggle with either mild, non-obsessive porn watching that doesn't disrupt work, play, child rearing, and relationships EXCEPT for the shock and distaste and hurt of the partner. And then the gamut that goes all the way to severe obsession - ruining lives, careers, finances, and relationships.
I'm not so sure it's even it's own topic, aside from any other obsessive behavior. A partner can be just as upset over someone who is compelled to shop online and get $100,000 in debt. Or become a hoarder. Or wash the baby 30 times a day.
One thing about internet porn watching is that it is really only about 15 years old or so, on any kind of scale. That's new in the sociological study world!

[Catsmine]

I have not read books on the subject and don't want to read ones that moralize. Journals and abstracts are more likely, and internet porn is ever changing. Grants have to be obtained. People have to be willing to come forward to be studied.
Just from watching TV shows on the subject, I see partners who struggle with either mild, non-obsessive porn watching that doesn't disrupt work, play, child rearing, and relationships EXCEPT for the shock and distaste and hurt of the partner. And then the gamut that goes all the way to severe obsession - ruining lives, careers, finances, and relationships.
I'm not so sure it's even it's own topic, aside from any other obsessive behavior. A partner can be just as upset over someone who is compelled to shop online and get $100,000 in debt. Or become a hoarder. Or wash the baby 30 times a day.
One thing about internet porn watching is that it is really only about 15 years old or so, on any kind of scale. That's new in the sociological study world!

Excellent point. One I tried to make in my first response. Pornography is one usually very minor aspect of human sexuality.

[earl237]

I heard that a feminist writer named Camille Paglia has expressed pro-porn views, but I'm not sure if she's written any books about it. I'm not sure why porn is still so controversial in this day and age. Playboy has been around since 1953, and Penthouse and Hustler have been around since 1969 and 1974. Just about everyone flips through these magazines at newstands, or their own or friend's houses while growing up and it doesn't scar them for life or turn them into criminals. There are so many more important issues to be worrying about like the environment, health care, crime, the economy, etc. Porn is really a non-issue.

[joypulv]

'Porn is really a non-issue.'

Porn is an issue in that it is asked about here (and presumably on other sites) daily, by partners. That seems to be what this is all about, much more than the porn itself. Not turning men into criminals.
'He won't touch me anymore. He just watches porn,'
'I saw porn on his computer and it was disgusting (violent, child, etc).'
'I feel unloved.'

Porn is also an issue in that it's a topic that usually seems to bring out our gender differences in our responses. Men seem to say it's just not a big deal and women tend to say it is. Speaking as a woman, I say it is in light of how the partner feels living with it. We don't hear from the countless couples who watch porn together - why would we? We hear from the women whose men are secretive about it and who spend little time with their woman. We don't know what starts the secrecy.

[talaniman]

Nor do we know the whole story just their side of it. I would love to hear the whole story. I often think there are other things besides just porn going on.

[backpack2389]

I just went on FirstSearch which takes me to databases such as MEDLINE, ERIC, plus all sorts of scientific and general ones. I found a wealth of citations and articles, so my suggestion is that you go to your public library and ask reference to conduct a search for you. Books that might intrigue you will be found using good keywords in a search or two or three on WorldCat.

I tried this, with no real success. In addition to Paul's book, I read the Supreme Court Decisions on pornography, the only other work on the topic in the library. I went to a couple of research databases and actually spent hours hunting through them and while I found lots of articles that mentioned pornography, none really contained quantitative measures of the effects of use, if they were truly related to porn at all. But, I can't remember if I tried Medline and Eric so I will give those a shot.

[backpack2389]

'Porn is really a non-issue.'

Porn is an issue in that it is asked about here (and presumably on other sites) daily, by partners. That seems to be what this is all about, much more than the porn itself. Not turning men into criminals.
'He won't touch me anymore. He just watches porn,'
'I saw porn on his computer and it was disgusting (violent, child, etc).'
'I feel unloved.'

Porn is also an issue in that it's a topic that usually seems to bring out our gender differences in our responses. Men seem to say it's just not a big deal and women tend to say it is. Speaking as a woman, I say it is in light of how the partner feels living with it. We don't hear from the countless couples who watch porn together - why would we? We hear from the women whose men are secretive about it and who spend little time with their woman. We don't know what starts the secrecy.

Agreed. For some people it is a nonissue, but that's not true of everyone. I read an article that prompted me to dig for other articles all discussing the fact that next to financial difficulties, infidelity is the major cause of divorce - where pornography is cited as one of the top forms of infidelity leading to divorce. If this is true, then it must be a big problem for more than a few people.

After reading all of the one-sided questions ask on AMHD these last several months, I think the biggest problem is that the porn tends to be seen as an issue by one partner and not the other. Only good communication and the partners coming to a consensus is going to help bridge this gap in perspective - and I do NOT think the only consensus has to be that the nonuser has to adapt to the user. This is why I hate the answers that simply advocate one partner 'getting used to' the other partner's porn use. That may work for a few, but many are just going to feel ignored and cheated out of intimacy.

[joypulv]

'... I hate the answers that simply advocate one partner 'getting used to' the other partner's porn use.'

I don't like them either. It's in many ways like the golf widow of old and the modern video game widow. TIME lost with the partner is one issue and SEX is another. Subtracting the nature of the porn from the issue still leaves the fact that time is lost, and that the time is lost to something that is more sensitive than golf.

How much time is too much? Surely both partners need time alone or away. How much alone/away? They need to sit down and decide how much.

And what about the nature of the porn? It shouldn't matter unless the partner is being neglected in terms of affection, sex, and love.

[backpack2389]

"TIME lost with the partner is one issue and SEX is another. "

Agreed, and the energy put into masturbation/porn when it would better be put into your partner. Everyone does need time to themselves, outlets for relaxation, etc., You don't just get absorbed into another person when you get into a relationship. But neither can you pretend that your partner's needs are still always supposed to be secondary because your's matter so much more. I think it is the nature of a relationship to give - and why people who do not want to be invested should expect to not have successful relationships.

Something that seems pushed is the topic the 'rights of an individual' and how they do not merge in a relationship. I wonder about a situation like this. Person 1 wants sex while person 2 is not around but will be home shortly - say a couple hours or less. But, home soon is not there now so person 1 masturbates, maybe indulging in porn. When person 2 does get home, person 1 is feeling satisfied/not interested in sex. This is not really a porn issue but is an individuals rights issue. Depending on who you ask I think one person would say person 1 can do whatever he/she wants because he/she is an adult and person 2 cannot make them feel badly about doing something that is natural and that satisfies a need. Another might say person 1 is being selfish, inconsiderate, etc.,

"How much time is too much? Surely both partners need time alone or away. How much alone/away? They need to sit down and decide how much."

Which means it can't be a topic that we don't discuss. It seems almost that just talking about the issue of porn and how it may be contributing to/encouraging selfish sexual habits is itself 'violating' a person's individual rights anymore.

"And what about the nature of the porn?"

Now here I do have some different thoughts. I'm fine with someone else observing and enjoying BDSM. But I would be worried if my partner or I began to sexually enjoy other peoples' pain. I do think the nature of the porn that someone enjoys (and I'm sure I'm in the minority on this) is reflexive of that person to a degree (how much, I can't say) and my partner enjoying types that alarm me would be worrisome. If he loved watching rape in a regular movie or in a pornographic film, either way I would be uncomfortable. The thing about the porn is that he is enjoying it so much that he's getting sexual gratification from it.