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    ebaines's Avatar
    ebaines Posts: 12,131, Reputation: 1307
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    #1

    Jan 3, 2013, 01:16 PM
    Roman Catholic Wedding, or Not?
    I have a couple of questions for my Roman Catholic friends regarding a wedding I attended last week. The circumstances were a bit strange, and I'm curious how the RC church would view this.

    Background: the bride is Catholic, the groom Protestant (Presbyterian I think, but not entirely sure). They are both in the military - he just got back from a tour with the Marines in Afghanistan, and she is a corpsman in the Navy. Before he shipped out last year they had a civil wedding ceremnony, very quiet, the idea being that in case anything happened to him while in Afghanistan she would be able to receive benefits as a widow. So now a year goes by, he's back in country, and they decide to have the traditional wedding ceeremony - white dress, bridesmaids, the father giving away the bride, etc and a big reception.

    So I arrive at the ceremony, which I assumed would be some sort of "blessing" ceremony rather than a real wedding, as they have already been married for a year. The ceremony actually took place not at a church but rather at a banquet hall. But the prrogram is a true wedding, the officant is listed as Father so-and-so. I'm told by another guest that it's actually going to be a Catholic ceremony, which surprised me because I know how strict the RC church is about inter-faith marriages, and I know that the couple has not been through any classes, and besides - they're already married! Plus the program did not seem Catholic to me - for example no communion. So the ceremony starts and the person who steps up as the officiant is not Faher so-and-so but rather a woman in a nice pants suit, no religious regalia at all. So here's the interesting part - it turns out that just 2 hours before the ceremony the priest emailed the bride to say sorry, he couldn't make it! He didn't bother to call, didn't give an excuse, and didn't offer to help find a replacement - amazing! Now this was in CT last week in the middle of a snow storm, so maybe he felt he couldn't drive. But many of us (me included) drove well over 100 miles that night without a problem. Luckily the father of the groom is friends with a woman who is a Justice of the Peace, and she was good enough to rush over and perform the ceremony. She basically took the program as already prepared and followed it, including prayers and scripture readings.

    So my questions are these:

    1. Is it possible that the ceremony would ever be considered a wedding by the RC church?
    2. Given the circumstance of the priest bailing out at the last minute - could it be that perhaps it he was unaware that the couple was already married, and that's why he skipped? If so - how could the couple have gone through several months of planning and presumably talking with this priest without him being aware? And would a RC priest ever actually agree to preside at such a "wedding" in the first place? Any other ideas as to what actually happened?
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #2

    Jan 3, 2013, 01:44 PM
    I was married in a Catholic Church... in Italy (can you get more Roman Catholic than that)..

    I am not and never have been Catholic. I am a protestant.. my wife was and remains Catholic.

    SO it does sometimes happen.. its usually up to the Priest and the Bishop of the Diocese.

    I met with the Bishop of the Dicese her Church was in... he approved it and the Priest had no problem with it... He is who said if the Bishop (Vescovo in Italian) aproves it he would be honored to perform it. Not all Priests will. Nor are they required to.

    And it was a full typical Catholic Ceremony that we had in the Church.

    I don't have answers to other parts of the question.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #3

    Jan 3, 2013, 01:45 PM
    Not the least bit unusual in my experience for a couple to marry outside a religious faith for whatever reason and then have a religious marriage performed - I don't believe this is totally a "Catholic" issue. I've seen people in the military marry for legal reasons, outside a church, and then follow up with a full church wedding.

    As far as being married in an outside venue in my area it is the decision of the Bishop whether this will be permitted. I also found: "For a Catholic wishing to get married outdoors in a garden, the law thus far is very restrictive. But the following paragraph may at first glance give Tim's daughter a glimmer of hope: canon 1118.2 notes that the bishop can allow a Catholic marriage to be celebrated in another suitable place. Strictly speaking, therefore, it is not impossible under canon law for two Catholics to get married in a Catholic ceremony in a rose garden; there is nothing intrinsically unsuitable about the location. (In contrast, U.S. bishops, including the Bishop of Orlando, Florida, have stated in the past that getting married at Disneyland is unacceptable, because they hold that this secular entertainment environment is not a suitable place to celebrate the Catholic sacrament of matrimony.) https://sites.google.com/site/thekno...icweddings/faq

    Why did the Priest "bail out?" Presumably no one but the Priest can answer that. Do I think a Priest would make up an excuse when he simply didn't have permission to perform an off site wedding? No.

    Why would the Priest plan the ceremony with the couple for months and then back out? Again, presumably the Priest knows.

    A possibility is that the couple jumped the gun when planning and scheduled the wedding before getting permission for an off-site wedding. Maybe someone is not telling the 100% truth - the couple, the family, the Priest.

    If the question is if this was a RC wedding, no, it was not. A Priest did not officiate.






    It sounds like all Tim's daughter needs to do is to get approval from the diocesan chancery to have the priest officiate at her wedding in the family garden instead of the parish church, right? Well, that may be implied by the canon, but in actual practice, getting that approval is not so easy."
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #4

    Jan 3, 2013, 01:54 PM
    I also wanted to add... in Italy there is always A Civil Ceremony first at the City hall (after the 5 week manditory waiting period after application for the marriage license where its posted publicly for people to contest)... and the Religious ceremony usually is not on the same day but some days later at the Church... thats how its always done over there..
    dontknownuthin's Avatar
    dontknownuthin Posts: 2,910, Reputation: 751
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    #5

    Jan 3, 2013, 01:58 PM
    You are correct. This is not a Roman Catholic marriage. If they wish for it to be, they can have the marriage blessed by a priest in a Catholic ceremony and it will then be recognized as a Catholic marriage by the church. To do this, they would have to go back and meet the marriage requirements of the church.

    A Catholic marriage can be performed outside of a church so the location is not an issue. Catholic mass and the other sacraments of the church can be performed virtually anywhere.

    A Catholic marriage cannot be performed by a lay person. Only ordained priests may perform the sacrament of marriage and women may not become Roman Catholic priests. So, if the presider was a woman it was absolutely not a Catholic marriage. All of the sacraments of the church must be administered by a priest. While we now have Eucharistic ministers who serve communion, this is done under the direction of the priest, who first celebrates the blessing of these gifts. So even if a Deacon or lay person brings communion to someone in the hospital, it is just a continuation of what the priest has already done by blessing those gifts at mass and they are acting as an extension and assistant to the priest, not instead of the priest.

    The church requires that Bans be published in anticipation of a Catholic marriage. This is normally just a small announcement in the church bulletin that runs prior to the date of the marriage. Couples must participate in Pre Cana counseling/class prior to publishing their Bans. Pre Cana takes a few months to complete. There may be some accommodations made for deployed service members but I don't believe they can simply skip it altogether.

    I don't know if the sacrament of marriage is ever performed or permitted to be performed absent a mass. I've never seen it done so I don't think it's a customary practice at any rate. I do believe, however, that all the sacraments stand on their own and can be performed separately - so I think marriage can be celebrated without mass - it would just be highly unusual. I could be wrong though on this point.

    You are also correct that already married people cannot marry again in the church. They can have their marriage blessed, and typically in the situation you described, the blessing can look nearly identical to a wedding with the dress and attendants, flowers, reception and the whole deal. All that differs is some of the wording but the ceremony is almost identical otherwise.

    So yeah - it wasn't a Catholic wedding. The groom being a non-Catholic would not be a barrier to the marriage but he would need to agree to raise any children who are issue of the marriage as Catholics in order for the couple to be married in a Catholic ceremony. He would also need to cooperate with the process - pre cana, publishing bans and so on.
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #6

    Jan 3, 2013, 02:07 PM
    The requirement for the pre-cana, publishing bans et al aren't neccessarly required by the church... THats more of a diocese level thing

    I was never subjected to, or required to do any of that... including being pressured into raising kids Catholic.. In fact I spent about an hour talking with the Bishop over mostly non-church and non-marriage related stuff before he approved my getting married in his Diocese by my wife's Priest) (Yes I am fluent in multiple languages)

    Yes I actually met and knew the Bishops for Rome... as well as the one for Florence, Padova, and Turin, including the one in Tuscany where I was Married. All are retired since then... the one that gave his blessing on my wedding died last year.

    Of course the real Italian Catholic Church the US Roman Catholic version is supposedly modeled off, does things a bit differently... but what those aren't really relivent to the questions posed in this thread.

    Lets just say as a Protestant... I like the US version of the Roman Catholic Church a lot less than the Italian Church in Italy. And yes I've been to a number of different ones over the last few decades since I was married in the Catholic Church.

    And I have been prevented from being the Godfather to one of my nephews by a different priest in a different church in Italy because I was Protestant... the priest who married me and my wife would have allowed it ( he did tell us so)... but he has been retired for a number of years. I still see him from time to time when I'm in Itally Its rare that I go two years without talking to him.
    dontknownuthin's Avatar
    dontknownuthin Posts: 2,910, Reputation: 751
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    #7

    Jan 3, 2013, 02:18 PM
    As a life-long Catholic I can assure you that while a particular priest may let something go, pre cana, publishing of bans and the agreement to raise children who result from the marriage Catholic are all required conditions of the marriage within the Roman rite the church. That's not to say that there aren't plenty of priests who fudge the rules and look the other way on a LOT of issues. It can be helpful to understand that there are levels of requirements. For example, there is church Doctrine (never changed, absolute) and there is church Discipline. Disciplines, such as the celibacy of priests, are still considered absolute requirements but can be changed though only at the highest levels of the church - a priest cannot change them for his own purposes, for example, nor can his bishop. It would require action by the Pope, likely the College of Cardinals as well. And then there are pronouncements from the Pope, presiding Cardinals and Bishops and the priests are expected to be obedient - not too different from a military structure where underlings must follow orders of commanding officers. Again, they are not supposed to do anything in opposition from this direction but some do - I'd even say that many do, in many situations, and try to just do so under the radar so they don't get in trouble.

    As for things like requiring a Bishop's approval to have a ceremony outdoors, it is not uncommon for a Bishop to give blanket permission for certain things, such as setting certain guidelines (like, no weddings at Disney World) for the priests to follow, and within those guidelines permitting the priest to use his own discretion. So couples may not even know that the Bishop's authority is required because it's already been secured by the priest in a more general sense.
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #8

    Jan 3, 2013, 04:22 PM
    You would be surprised what you THINK is required by the Roman Catholic Church... I.E. The Vatican directly... is far , far different than you think.

    There are significant differences between the Italian Catholic Church and the American Catholic church... more than you can imagine.

    And we aren't talking small things... we are talking significant and very obvious ones...

    Do you actually believe the thing about celibacy? And that deviating from it isn't tolerated? That's what they want you to believe... what really happens is way different.

    I can rattle off a list of Catholic Priests that very publicly have girlfriends, from Churches I have attended over the years... and its not great secrets from anyone either.( a couple of those even have a kid)... I can even name a few here in the USA. No they aren't married... Don't know a single one of them that was ever disciplined for it either... their Bishops would have to truly have their heads buried in the sand to not know... everyone that goes to the church knows... most of them anyway.

    What the Vatican does is have fairly loose controls over what happens... operating word being loose. And the Catholic church is hardly as lock step or monolithic as you think too. (With-out even considering Greek or Russian Orthodox which I know nothing about to comment on)

    I pick up on these things pretty easy and I've been to a number in three states plus the District of Columbia... and two countries. Plus once at the Vatican... yes.. its unusual for a life long protestant to have been to that many Catholic Churches.
    dontknownuthin's Avatar
    dontknownuthin Posts: 2,910, Reputation: 751
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    #9

    Jan 3, 2013, 04:57 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    You would be surprised what you THINK is required by the Roman Catholic Church...I.E. The Vatican directly...is far , far different than you think.

    There are significant differences between the Italian Catholic Church and the American Catholic church....more than you can imagine.

    And we aren't talking small things...we are talking significant and very obvious ones....

    Do you actually believe the thing about celibacy? And that deviating from it isn't tolerated? THats what they want you to believe...what really happens is way different.

    I can rattle off a list of Catholic Priests that very publicly have girlfriends, from Churches I have attended over the years....and its not great secrets from anyone either.( a couple of those even have a kid)...I can even name a few here in the USA. No they aren't married...Don't know a single one of them that was ever disciplined for it either...their Bishops would have to truly have their heads buried in the sand to not know.....everyone that goes to the church knows...most of them anyway.

    What the Vatican does is have fairly loose controls over what happens.....operating word being loose. And the Catholic church is hardly as lock step or monolithic as you think too. (With-out even considering Greek or Russian Orthodox which I know nothing about to comment on)

    I pick up on these things pretty easy and I've been to a number in three states plus the The District of Columbia...and two countries. Plus once at the Vatican.....yes..its unusual for a life long protestant to have been to that many Catholic Churches.
    Oh, I definitely concede that many priests and bishops do things that are not allowed and get away with it. No question. That said, I think the OP was addressing questions of official church doctrines and disciplines. If we answered on the basis of what people do who aren't following the rules, we could just answer, "yeah, anything goes". By the same token, if she was asking, "are people allowed to sell heroine on the street in Illinois", of course, it's against the law. Then again, a lot of people do it without suffering any negative consequences, as long as they don't get caught, so in that regard one could argue that it is "allowed".
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #10

    Jan 3, 2013, 05:53 PM
    I was up eating dinner and thought about how I phrased it... so I will make a clarification... none of these Priests were openly flaunting it... it was kept low-key... it was a poorly kept secret type thing... and it was met with a wink and a nod by their higher ups... because literally most in the congregations knew about it... in two cases it spanned well over 20 years... and they lived on church property even though technically they each had their own apartments.. There was even rumors of a Bishop doing it...

    I concede if they were openly flaunting it... it might have been different and in fact probably would have been.

    One of them.. I know for a fact after retiring is living with the same girlfriend... and has been for years. She was his secretary when he was still Serving as a Priest. Now as a retired Monsenior (I know I spelled that wrong) they are living together.

    For all of the bad press about the bad apples that were molesting kids... none of the group I knew had been accused of that... not publicly anyway.

    But like I said... there are huge differences from the Catholic Church in Italy and the Catholic church of the USA.

    The church here in the USA flat out tells you how much you should be giving them... and they aren't shy about it... so far as asking to see paychecks to know how much you make... (5 different Churches in two states my wife considered joining did that)... she was appalled they did that... and she was born and raised Catholic... (and at 49 remains one).

    The Catholic church in Italy... relies on peoples good will to give what they are comfortable with... and never insist on seeing how much you make. That right there is one of the big reasons I am not a fan of the American Catholic church.

    The way its run they treat the USA as the main funding source for the Vatican... or at least without knowing the real numbers... it certainly has that appearance...

    The basic Mass thing is fairly consistent... but that's about it. And even then there is a lot of leeway in how they do it from priest to priest.

    Odd how a protestant spend as much time with Bishops as I have... I've been Snorkeling with several of them in the Mediterranean before. And nearly all of my contact with them was outside of church activities... for the most part.

    No I won't go into details of how, where and why... outside of what I already said. Some of them are still alive and active in the church... a couple retired.. several deceased.

    Pardon my french... but the Bishop from Rome back then was a world class p r I c k... he was a very arrogant... and generally unpleasant man to be around.(he died many years ago... he was old and cranky back then).. the couple I went snorkeling with were ( from Northern Italy ) conversely a couple of the nicest guys I've known on a personal level.
    dontknownuthin's Avatar
    dontknownuthin Posts: 2,910, Reputation: 751
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    #11

    Jan 3, 2013, 06:57 PM
    Yes, I'm sure there are a lot of differences. Officially, though, the priests in Italy and the US are meant to follow the same doctrine and disciplines.

    The failures of priests to honor their vows of celibacy are well documented. Not all priests dishonor their vocations or the church in these ways though. I also know many men and women religious, and they are as varied as any other group of people.

    But as for the original question - what's described is not in any way, shape or form a Catholic wedding.
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    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #12

    Jan 4, 2013, 02:05 AM
    In American a Catholic and a non catholic ( but baptized ) are married in the church, This has happened for years , ( as long as I can remember) I married my first wife Catholic, my son married his wife Catholic. And I have been to dozens of Catholic weddings where one party was not Catholic.

    In this case if the Priest was there, they do a complete Catholic wedding to have it blessed by the church. I have no idea why the priest did not show up, only he knows that.
    I have had to go do weddings in years past with a 30 min notice when pastors of all sorts of denominations bailed at last minute or just never showed up and I had to rush to a wedding hall.

    But no this is not a catholic wedding, unless a Catholic Priest does the wedding
    Thirdtime's Avatar
    Thirdtime Posts: 73, Reputation: 5
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    #13

    Jan 9, 2013, 06:04 PM
    This is not a Church wedding or Catholic wedding.. It is an organised wedding by a party(family/couple/friends etc)which have a ''Ministers/Bishop/Church's etc '' blessings in the programme.
    A Church Wedding must be at one of the couples church and the Bishop or Minister knows one of them or both to be members of that denomination particularly that church.And the Bishop or Minister leads the service from start to end.

    I can understand why the Priest had to withdraw here... because in many weddings as this any Minister or Father can be asked to ''bless'' the couple and a promise of some sort of gifts presumably. Therefore if the 1st one withdrew the organisers can look for another one.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #14

    Jan 9, 2013, 06:51 PM
    The question wasn't about a church wedding which by definition is held in a Church. It's about an off-site "Catholic" wedding which was not officiated over by a Priest.

    Religious weddings (Catholic and otherwise) are performed outside of an established Church frequently in the US.
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    Thirdtime Posts: 73, Reputation: 5
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    #15

    Jan 9, 2013, 07:37 PM
    Hmmm OK thanks for the reminder @JudyKayTee!
    I guess its pretty hard to say what we thought about the question because we don't really know the truth here e.g I'm told by another guest that it's actually going to be a Catholic ceremony, (as ebaines wrote).

    Would have been easier if was told by Father so-and-so..
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    dontknownuthin Posts: 2,910, Reputation: 751
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    #16

    Jan 9, 2013, 09:25 PM
    Yes, the location is not as important as meeting the other requirements but if it's not officiated by a male Catholic priest, no matter where in the world the marriage occurs, it's not a Catholic marriage ceremony.
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #17

    Jan 10, 2013, 12:13 AM
    If it is not a Catholic Priest doing the marriage, the outline of service may be the catholic style, but is not recognized by the Catholic Church and is not a real Catholic wedding
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #18

    Jan 10, 2013, 09:53 AM
    Thank you Father so and so.

    LOL.
    Thirdtime's Avatar
    Thirdtime Posts: 73, Reputation: 5
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    #19

    Jan 10, 2013, 10:14 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by JudyKayTee View Post
    Thank you Father so and so.

    LOL.
    Hehe...
    Thirdtime's Avatar
    Thirdtime Posts: 73, Reputation: 5
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    #20

    Jan 10, 2013, 10:19 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck View Post
    If it is not a Catholic Priest doing the marriage, the outline of service may be the catholic style, but is not recognized by the Catholic Church and is not a real Catholic wedding
    Hi there Fr_Chuck... so what you're trying to say is this wedding is a ''Civil Blessing?'' lol..

    Take care..

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