[earl237]

Does anyone remember if there were attempts to pass new gun laws after the shootings of John Lennon and Ronald Reagan? I wasn't old enough to remember. I remember a time magazine article from 1989 called Armed America that discussed violent crime and the ease that people could buy guns. I remember the Brady bill and assault weapons ban passed in 1994, but it didn't seem to help much. Even after the Columbine and other school shootings in the late 90s didn't seem to motivate politicians to change gun laws. Neither did the Gabrielle Giffords, or theatre shootings. I hope there will be some change this time, but it doesn't look very promising.

[paraclete]

I don't doubt there have been many debates and even bans but the whole process is stillborn in the wake of the second amendment which has locked the nation into this right to bare arms thing which is made to transcend all other rights. The writers of the constitution were very vague, purposefully so, about about what it was really about. They had used a militia to start a war and so had a romantic idea about what a militia could achieve. What you now have is an armed camp

[Fr_Chuck]

This week here in China a man took a large knife ( sort of looked like a short sword) and stabbed 20 children here.

They don't need guns to kill and cause violence. A crazy person will use the weapon they can get.

Pour gas and set them on fire and so on.

[tomder55]

I don't doubt there have been many debates and even bans but the whole process is stillborn in the wake of the second amendment which has locked the nation into this right to bare arms thing which is made to transcend all other rights. The writers of the constitution were very vague, purposefully so, about about what it was really about. they had used a militia to start a war and so had a romantic idea about what a militia could achieve. what you now have is an armed camp

That of course is misleading . American states and local governments have had gun regulations dating back as early as 1813 ;maybe even earlier . Many of the towns in the old West had laws about leaving your guns at the Sheriff's when entering town. The famous gunfight at the OK corral was instigated when Tom McLaury violated that ordinance.

Another misconception is that in the last 20 years ,the rate of gun ownership here has steadily declined. You talk about the militia . Before the Constitution states would store armaments for the militia in public arsenals. That became an issue during the Shays' Rebellion 1787 when Massachusetts resident named Daniel Shays led eleven hundred men in an attempt to capture an arsenal in Springfield. They came real close to capturing the arsenal. Later John Brown did in fact over run the arsenal at Harper's Ferry . It was locals armed with their private weapons that surrounded him . Late to the game was the Federals led by Robert E Lee.

The 2nd Amendment was not about militia. They were already covered in the Constitution .
“to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions,”...“to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress,”
(Article One Sec 8)
The 2nd Amendment is about the right to own guns..
Here is the original version of the amendment drafted by Madison:

“The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.”

Gun law debates have also always followed tragic shootings. In 1963 the ownership of single shot bolt action rifles became a controversy after Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK. In fact ,it used to be the liberals who advocated for the right to own guns. They sided with Malcolm X's statement that carrying a gun for self defense was an American's right.

To answer the question asked .Although gun control regarding "Saturday Night Special" handguns were discussed after Lennon's shooting ,nothing meaningful was passed until the 'Brady Bill. '

There was zero reason to close the previous discussion about this topic . I have to question the power of administrators to close topics on discussion forums without any real cause.

[Tuttyd]

This week here in China a man took a large knife ( sorta looked like a short sword) and stabbed 20 children here.

They don't need guns to kill and cause violence. A crazy person will use the weapon they can get.

Pour gas and set them on fire and so on.

Fr. Chuck, the problem with this example and many other similar examples is that commit the continuum fallacy.

It is implied that the two weapons have little distinction when it comes to carnage. In other words they are so similar in outcomes they don't need to be treated as distinct.

The same fallacy is perpetrated when we say that if we ban guns why not ban the ingredients that make up a Molotov cocktail.


Tut

[tomder55]

There have been plenty of fallacies in this debate. For one , gun mass murders are no more lethal than any other type ,and less than many . Guns killed an average of 4.92 victims per mass murder in the United States during the 20th century, just edging out knives, blunt objects, and bare hands, which killed 4.52 people per incident. Fire killed 6.82 people per mass murder. Explosives ? 20.82 per incident .

[Tuttyd]

There have been plenty of fallacies in this debate. For one , gun mass murders are no more lethal than any other type ,and less than many . Guns killed an average of 4.92 victims per mass murder in the United States during the 20th century, just edging out knives, blunt objects, and bare hands, which killed 4.52 people per incident. Fire killed 6.82 people per mass murder. Explosives ? 20.82 per incident .

Well, you would have to point the others out because I was mainly concentrating on your posts. Shouldn't do that I know, but this time you are responding to my comments.

All I can do is respond in a similar way as I did the last time you posted statistics. That is to say,statistics by themselves don't constitute a fallacy, although you can have statistical fallacies. These usually take the form of 'cherry picking' It all depends on the statistics you use and the conclusions you draw.

As far as your conclusion from the statistics you have posted are concerned - again - I don't know if your conclusion is correct. I would withhold judgement until I see the report.

Tut

[Tuttyd]

Tom, please don't post a study on the topic because we will just being going over the same ground as last time.

I chip you for a fallacy and you respond with a study. The type of fallacies I keep referring to are those that exhibit mistakes in reasoning or inferences drawn. Most studies will contain correct inferences based on the statistics they choose to use. I am highlighting a more immediate problem.

Tut

[excon]

Hello:

Couple things...

Anybody who DENIES that guns KILL, are designed to KILL, and KILL more than an angry guy with a brick could, are actually NUTS.

Anybody who thinks keeping assault rifles will serve to DEFEND themselves against a government armed with Apache Helicopters and Striker Brigades, is actually NUTS.

NUTS have no place at the table when discussing REAL issues.

excon

PS> Merry Christmas..

[tomder55]

But it isn't nutty to conclude that what hasn't worked in the past will work this time.

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

but it isn't nutty to conclude that what hasn't worked in the past will work this time.

If you're saying that prohibition doesn't work, I tend to agree with you..

Excon

[talaniman]

If the goal is to keep guns that the army uses off the street and out the hands of homicidal nuts and criminals then ban them and take away access to them. Many countries have done this already and it does seem to work. Then a loon cannot steal, borrow, or buy, a weapon of mass destruction.

Personal defense is one thing, mass murder made easy is another. It may not be the total solution, but a start.

[tomder55]

Well I'd counter that with evidence . But Tal doesn't think evidence is relevant. But let's start with the fact that the vast majority of gun deaths in this country are caused by hand guns and not semi-automatic rifles.

[talaniman]

Yes but massacres of such we have seen is the subject of debate. The evidence on that has been made starkly clear. The mayors across the nation have said they are victims of loopholes and under regulated laws in other states.

[tomder55]

You mean like Mayor Bloomy who walks around with a contingent of security the size of an Army platoon ? The gun used in the latest was purchased legally in one of the most regulated states in the nation . Surely a state so regulated would've had really tough conditions for that purchase .So that argument doesn't really wash. Did such a ban in the 1990s prevent Columbine ? Nope ,and it won't prevent the next .

[talaniman]

The last massacre was a loony who stole and murdered the legal owner.

[paraclete]

Fact is Tom you don't believe the evidence because you only want to look at evidence from one source. What is obvious is that legal guns kill just as surely and as often than illegal guns. The people who have guns are the problem and the way to stop them is not to allow them to have guns. There are more gun dealers than supermarkets, what does that tell you? It tells me that someone is profiting from the gun trade and death. Go haead Tom keep putting profits before children, like the good capitalist you are. Stop worshipping money Tom

[speechlesstx]

There are more gun dealers than supermarkets, what does that tell you?

Well that's just nonsense. Although, you can buy guns and groceries in Walmart. One stop shopping.

it tells me that someone is profiting from the gun trade and death. Go haead Tom keep putting profits before children, like the good capitalist you are. Stop worshipping money Tom

I certainly wouldn't be a gun dealer if I couldn't make a profit, but the only issue is rights. We have the right to own guns to protect our property AND our children.

[excon]

Hello Steve:

We have the right to own guns to protect our property AND our children.

If THAT'S what you're doing, I'll BET you don't have a 100 round drum magazine.

Excon

[speechlesstx]

Hello Steve:

If THAT'S what you're doing, I'll BET you don't have a 100 round drum magazine.

excon

No, and I'm not letting them 'walk' to Mexico so the bad guys can murder Mexican citizens and US Border Patrol agents either.