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    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #61

    Jan 8, 2013, 11:26 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    This is the rest of what Stark said,
    Which makes my point even better...

    ... said in his opening remarks at the bill markup session that he agrees with the Republicans on Ways and Means that the IPAB provision is a bad provision.

    "Remember, the House included no similar provision in our health reform bill," Stark said.

    PPACA is the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
    Yes I know, another of those things Dems do that say one thing and mean the opposite.
    Tuttyd's Avatar
    Tuttyd Posts: 53, Reputation: 4
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    #62

    Jan 10, 2013, 03:45 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Speaking of socialized medicine, I guess it's ok if you don't mind dying needlessly because of "efficiency" targets (aka rationing).



    But hey, let's be just like them!

    Why not? You do have bad managers don't you? Just like the UK has bad journalists and Q.C's who mount bad arguments. Let's have a look at a couple of things.

    Tom Kark QC counsel to the inquiry, reportedly described Sir David's attitude as "very dangerous" and said his assumption that other failing hospitals would have been identified by demonstrably failings systems was "naive".

    "Would have been identified", except for what? Perhaps Identifiable by doing a bit of question begging?

    "Sir David a former Communist Party member, was installed as chief executive of the NHS.............." May as well throw in an an ad hominem while we are at it. This of course has absolutely noting to do with his outcomes (good or bad) as a manager.


    Between 400 and 1,200 patients died because a catalogue of failings? That is a X 3 possibility difference Sounds serious enough to be able to pint point the failings and to come up with a fairly specific number. One would have though so anyway.

    Shall I go on?
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #63

    Jan 10, 2013, 04:58 AM
    No
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #64

    Jan 10, 2013, 07:38 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuttyd View Post
    Why not? You do have bad managers don't you? Just like the UK has bad journalists and Q.C's who mount bad arguments. Let's have a look at a couple of things.

    Tom Kark QC counsel to the inquiry, reportedly described Sir David's attitude as "very dangerous" and said his assumption that other failing hospitals would have been identified by demonstrably failings systems was "naive".

    "Would have been identified", except for what? Perhaps Identifiable by doing a bit of question begging?

    "Sir David a former Communist Party member, was installed as chief executive of the NHS.............." May as well throw in an an ad hominem while we are at it. This of course has absolutely noting to do with his outcomes (good or bad) as a manager.


    Between 400 and 1,200 patients died because a catalogue of failings? That is a X 3 possibility difference Sounds serious enough to be able to pint point the failings and to come up with a fairly specific number. One would have though so anyway.

    Shall I go on?
    Not sure how noting the fact he is a "former Communist Party member" is an ad hominem. Now if he would have said "Sir David, an inept, raging wacko former Communist Party member" I'd call that an ad hominem. Regardless, I'm sure that all those dying needlessly would have felt much having known it was just bad management.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #65

    Jan 10, 2013, 01:07 PM
    Former communist party members have a perpensity to seek particular solutions which involve aggregating resources under central control
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #66

    Jan 10, 2013, 01:42 PM
    So what? Capitalist do the same thing except they are the central place.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #67

    Jan 10, 2013, 01:49 PM
    No quite the same thing Tal, socialists don't think of a capitalist solution, they think in terms of big projects involving bureaucracy, capitalists think in terms of minimilisation and profits
    Tuttyd's Avatar
    Tuttyd Posts: 53, Reputation: 4
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    #68

    Jan 10, 2013, 02:43 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Not sure how noting the fact he is a "former Communist Party member" is an ad hominem. Now if he would have said "Sir David, an inept, raging wacko former Communist Party member" I'd call that an ad hominem. Regardless, I'm sure that all those dying needlessly would have felt much having known it was just bad management.

    Would they have felt better if he was a former member of the Tory Party?

    It would be an ad hominem because of the implications being a member of the Communist Party carries. So it would be an ad hominem by implication.
    Tuttyd's Avatar
    Tuttyd Posts: 53, Reputation: 4
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    #69

    Jan 10, 2013, 02:56 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    former communist party members have a perpensity to seek particular solutions which involve aggregating resources under central control

    Good point. So it is actually possible that if an adhominem may be justified on the basis that the initial implication is carried through to a conclusion.

    If I were to launch an attack on a political leader because they are an atheist and therefore not qualified to run a country, that would be an ad hominem attack. If they starting banning churches, then it would be possible to say my criticisms were justified.

    However, as far as the article in the British Telegraph is concerned this is not justified. The information provided suggests Sir David in his job has actually been promoting the opposite of a strong centralized bureaucratic system. Wanting to establish the hospital as a foundation trust means he was pushing for a devolution of the decision making process.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #70

    Jan 10, 2013, 03:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    No quite the same thing Tal, socialists don't think of a capitalist solution, they think in terms of big projects involving bureaucracy, capitalists think in terms of minimilisation and profits
    Naw those are republicans. They are the slaves of the capitalist.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #71

    Jan 10, 2013, 03:26 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuttyd View Post
    Would they have felt better if he was a former member of the Tory Party?

    It would be an ad hominem because of the implications being a member of the Communist Party carries. So it would be an ad hominem by implication.
    Like calling Obama a liberal?
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #72

    Jan 10, 2013, 06:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Like calling Obama a liberal?
    But Obama is not a liberal he is a democrat
    Classical liberalism, a political ideology that advocates unregulated markets, limited government, rule of law, due process, and individual liberties including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and others

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