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ScottGem · Oct 14, 2012, 08:12 AM

Some of you might remember I asked about a problem with a bathroom fixture a whole back.

Never got it fixed, but I think I found what else was on that circuit. Looks like my upstairs recirculator for my heating system is also on the circuit because its not working. I have no heat upstairs.

So I need to get this fixed and I'm assuming my heating repair contract is not going to cover it. So I'm going to need to call in an electrician.

So my question is what is a reasonable fee to pay for a repair like this? Can I get a flat fee or will they charge for time? Remember I'm on LI,NY so I assume rates will be higher?

hkstroud · Oct 14, 2012, 10:56 AM

While I vaguely you posting about a minor electrical problem with a bath fixture I don't recall the specifics and I am not about to look through over 55,000 post to find it.

You need to give more details about your present problem. What is the recirculator you speak off. Is it the circulating fan of a hot air heating system or the circulating pump of a hot water heating system? Regardless it is highly unlikely that it and the bath fixture are on the same circuit and are not likely to be related.

No one will give you a fixed price for finding an open circuit, which is what I assume you mean by short. No way of telling how much time or work will be involved until the problem is found.

Tell us the specifics of your present problem.

ScottGem · Oct 14, 2012, 11:25 AM

I didn't expect anyone to look up the previous thread. I would have linked to it if I felt it important. But here it is if it helps (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/electr...ad-664206.html)

The problem is one of the circuit breakers is popping off. The upstairs bathroom light fixture went out. I had not been able to find any other outlet, fixture, etc. that is not working. But since this happened during warm weather, I didn't notice that I wasn't getting heat upstairs. Now that its getting cold, I realized the circulating pump for the upstairs heating zone was not running. I checked and there is no power coming to the pump. The only conclusion I could reach was it was on the same circuit as the bathroom fixture (as unlikely as that may be).

I was afraid I wouldn't get a flat rate on this, but is there anyway I can get a possible ballpark figure? If its going to be very expensive, I may try replacing the breaker first.

hkstroud · Oct 14, 2012, 11:45 AM

A quick review of your previous post, this was apparent missed by all of us.

but it appears to be part of a two circuit breaker (there are two switches and two wires going in.

That could be a 240V breaker or it could be two 120V breakers sharing a neutral.

If it is a 240V breaker your light fixture would not be on that circuit.

If it is two 120V circuits sharing a neutral, then one circuit could be tripping due to a short, and because the breaker handles are tied together, the second breaker is being turned off. If that is the case the cable used will be a 3 wire cable with red and black to the breakers and white to the neutral bar. In that case I would remove the wire to one breaker to see which circuit is causing the fault.

ScottGem · Oct 14, 2012, 11:47 AM

Only one side of the breaker is tripping. The other side works fine.

hkstroud · Oct 14, 2012, 12:10 PM

That statement makes me think you are referring to a what is often called a 2-in-1, slim line or piggy back breaker. Two circuit breakers that fit in one space and which function independently of one another.

Does your furnace have an means of turning off the electricity at the furnace? Right now I am assuming your heating system is a gas or oil fired hot water system.

ScottGem · Oct 14, 2012, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by hkstroud

That statement makes me think you are referring to a what is often called a 2-in-1, slim line or piggy back breaker. Two circuit breakers that fit in one space and which function independently of one another.

That's what I think

Originally Posted by hkstroud

Does your furnace have an means of turning off the electricity at the furnace? Right now I am assuming your heating system is a gas or oil fired hot water system.

Of course it does, what does that matter? I'm getting heat on other zones. And yes oil fired hot water.

hkstroud · Oct 14, 2012, 12:55 PM

Do you have more than one circulation pump? Suggest turning off switch at boiler and see if breaker will reset. If breaker will reset that would indicated fault is at boiler or switch to boiler. If not fault might be in light wiring. All depends on how things are wired. If more than one pump is the non-functioning one wired independently of boiler?

ScottGem · Oct 14, 2012, 03:46 PM

Tried that, no go, circuit still trips. Questions is still do I try replacing the breaker or call an electrician? And how much is the electrician going to cost?

stanfortyman · Oct 14, 2012, 04:13 PM

I'm not sure why you think you can get a flat rate for a troubleshoot. This is typically done time & material.
If you do get a flat rate be sure you will be paying much more than T&M.

stanfortyman · Oct 14, 2012, 04:16 PM

Also, how can we tell what it is going to cost? This is a troubleshoot. It may take 15 minutes, it may take two hours. Call around and get rates of electricians in your area.
Also, it is most likely not the breaker. I hear of so many folks saying "I changed the breaker and it still trips." Well of course it still trips, it is just doing it's job.

ScottGem · Oct 14, 2012, 04:58 PM

Stan, I don't know which is why I asked the question. The only other time I ever hired an electrician was when we dormered the house 20 years ago. I'm just trying to get an idea here so when I talk to electricians, I will have an idea what I'm dealing with.

tkrussell · Oct 15, 2012, 05:05 AM

Scott,

Stan is correct, we cannot speculate how much time is needed to troubleshoot a problem.

And, we cannot speculate what the prevailing rates are where your located.

Here are a couple of contractors I found in your area, I am sure there are plenty more;

http://www.lielectric.com//residential_electric.html

Long Island Residential Electrician | Electrical Contractor

Best you can do is to ask what they charge for hourly rates, service charges, etc.

I can tell you I charge here in Maine as a union contractor, $108.00 for the first hour, then $68.00 per hour thereafter. and travel to the site included.

Here is one I found that offers flat rate:

Allways Electric flat rate service call saves you money

Let us know how you make out.

donf · Oct 15, 2012, 06:24 AM

Good morning Scott or not, how is life on the long island?

Can you describe the connection at the panel box any better or get a picture of the breaker that is failing and append it to this thread.

I need to understand how that circuit is wired. If the circuit is a multiwire circuit and only one breaker trips, then we need to find out if there is a short on the circuit.

I would start by swapping the breakers, one at a time and see if the fault follows the breakers. If it does, then you have a defective breeaker. I know you are a master of mayn hardware and softeware apps, but are you comfortable opening the pnel and swapping the breakers. If not, then your question is moot. You will need to contact a licensed electrican.

My suggestion is to get at least three bids and if you are a member of "Angie"s" list, see what is on the board about the electricians you have selected.

ScottGem · Oct 15, 2012, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by donf

I need to understand how that circuit is wired. If the circuit is a multiwire circuit and only one breaker trips, then we need to find out if there is a short on the circuit.

.

That is the way it is. I thought of swapping the circuit, so I'm going to give that a try.

And yes I am pretty comfortable with this. I've actually added a new circuit to the panel on my own. I believe there is a short, and finding it seems beyond my capability.

donf · Oct 15, 2012, 07:30 AM

No it is not beyond you. You just need to think the circuit through.

Start by looking at the breaker and getting the amperage it can support. Then, open the lamp and remove it from the circuit.

Does the breaker still trip?
Does the air handler still fail?

Check the label on the air handler and verify the voltage and amperage needed.

Is the amperage required the same as the breaker?

ScottGem · Oct 15, 2012, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by donf

No it is not beyond you. You just need to think the circuit through.

Start by looking at the breaker and getting the amperage it can support. Then, open the lamp and remove it from the circuit.

Does the breaker still trip?
Does the air handler still fail?

Check the label on the air handler and verify the voltage and amperage needed.

Is the amperage required the same as the breaker?

I removed the bathroom fixture and the switch that controlled it when it originally went out. Breaker still tripped. At the time, I thought it was the only thing on the breaker since I could find no other outlet or fixture that was not working.

It was only when I realized the pump was not running that I realized it was on the same breaker. But I took that out as well and its still tripping.

So that's where I am now. If this can be repaired for a few hundred (under $500), I can afford that, especially since I need to get it done before it gets too cold and I don't really have the time.

ScottGem · Oct 25, 2012, 09:54 AM

Well, my electric issues are solved, but I was totally wrong about the circuit. I assumed that because I had a circuit that was tripping that was the cause of the problem.

I have a friend in my cycling club who is a licensed electrician. Got ahold of him yesterday. He stopped yesterday afternoon for less than an hour and both my bathroom light and circulating pump are operational. I had heat this morning!

The circuit that was tripping is apparently connected to lights w outlets in my front yard (that haven't worked for years) and had nothing to do with the upstairs. Not sure exactly what was wrong with the upstairs wiring but its all working now.

Best part, he refused to accept payment, even though I tried to insist!

I'll try talking to him at the next club meeting to get further details, but I wasn't at the house so I didn't want to press while at work.

tkrussell · Oct 25, 2012, 11:34 AM

Scott, awesome, thanks for letting all know how you made out.

You have a good friend, just shows that us electricians do have a heart.

If I told you how much work I have done for friends etc, no charge, I could have been retired by now.

More details would be great.

ScottGem · Oct 25, 2012, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Scott, awesome, thanx for letting all know how you made out.

You have a good friend, just shows that us electricians do have a heart.

If I told you how much work I have done for friends etc, no charge, I could have been retired by now.

More details would be great.

I probably won't see him for a couple of weeks, but I'll ask. I really had no intention of asking for a freebie. When I called I specifically mentioned "hiring" him.

Now I'm wondering what I should do with the circuit that is tripped. Should I just disconnect the wire going to the outside or leave it.