[speechlesstx]

It's interesting to hear excon state that a true liberal listens to all points of view. Interesting given that on another thread I shared my conservative leaning (but still quite moderate) view on your political question about the great political divide of the country, and you derisively dismissed my comments as, I believe you called it, conservative "claptrap".

Ex derisively dismisses everything, but he grows on you (like a fungus).

Just kidding, he's harmless.

[paraclete]

Time for a funguside

[TUT317]

As always strings come attached to federal dollars. Why would they want to be constrained by the feds?

A National curriculum would be one reason. Do all schools over there follow a national curriculum?


Tut

[cdad]

A National curriculum would be one reason. Do all schools over there follow a national curriculum?


Tut

In theory yes they do. But it is up to the States to set the goals. So if a child is in one state they may be working on something different in another. But in the end the same goals that were set forth are achieved.

Example: The government (federal) sets the standard goal to be A B C D.

States can make their own choices as to how to accomplish the goals and when.

State 1 might work with CDAB. State 2 might do it ACBD.

In the end it is the same but the brush is narrowed when painting the picture of education as a whole.

[paraclete]

In theory yes they do. But it is up to the States to set the goals. So if a child is in one state they may be working on something different in another. But in the end the same goals that were set forth are achieved.

Example: The government (federal) sets the standard goal to be A B C D.

States can make thier own choices as to how to acomplish the goals and when.

State 1 might work with CDAB. State 2 might do it ACBD.

In the end it is the same but the brush is narrowed when painting the picture of education as a whole.

I don't know how Tut can be proposing a national cirriculum when it is only recently standardisation has occurred to us as a means to solve certain problems. The problem is always to get the teachers on the same page as far as achievement is concerned. We have recently found there is a problem with keeping certain senior students in the school system and ways must be found to prevent them from degrading the performance of others

[Wondergirl]

I don't know how Tut can be proposing a national cirriculum when it is only recently standardisation has occured to us as a means to solve certain problems. The problem is always to get the teachers on the same page as far as achievement is concerned. We have recently found there is a problem with keeping certain senior students in the school system and ways must be found to prevent them from degrading the performance of others

And I think that mainstreaming disabled students "degrades" the performance of others, although it does offer advantages to the students that are not curriculum related. And standardized tests have their place, but they also dumb down teaching. No longer are students taught how to think. There's no time in the school day for that because the students have to be taught all the trivia so they will pass the standardized test.

[tomder55]

And I think that mainstreaming disabled students "degrades" the performance of others, although it does offer advantages to the students that are not curriculum related. And standardized tests have their place, but they also dumb down teaching. No longer are students taught how to think. There's no time in the school day for that because the students have to be taught all the trivia so they will pass the standardized test.

BAM ! Love it when we agree on something. Standard tests are lazy ways to evaluate teacher's performance. But I think where the system errs is in automatic tenure . But I do think those days are coming to an end.

[speechlesstx]

A National curriculum would be one reason. Do all schools over there follow a national curriculum?

Tut

They all use the same alphabet and numbers? Pretty much the whole point of being a private school is to be free to do things differently.

[paraclete]

And I think that mainstreaming disabled students "degrades" the performance of others, although it does offer advantages to the students that are not curriculum related. And standardized tests have their place, but they also dumb down teaching. No longer are students taught how to think. There's no time in the school day for that because the students have to be taught all the trivia so they will pass the standardized test.

Not really the point I was making, disabled students need to be dealt with in appropriate facilities so as not to disturb the progress of others but this shouldn't mean isolation. No I was speaking about those older students who have no real interest because for various reasons they don't really see their future being benefited and so they become disruptive, even aggressive. We have a lot of these in our school system, they are not allowed to drop out, legally they must attend to a certain age, but probably they have reached their potential shortly after attending high school for the first time. They know school attendance isn't going to lead to that good job.

Evaluating teacher performance cannot rely on test outcomes although the number of passes or failures may be indicative of the quality of teaching. There must be a way of weeding out the teachers who have lost their passion and are just doing a job

[Wondergirl]

they don't really see their future being benefited and so they become disruptive, even aggressive.

I'm so out of the loop now, but I'm thinking we offer alternative schools for these young people who have aged out and may be behavior problems, are segregated from the rest of the students for everyone's benefit. Teacherjenn would know.

[paraclete]

Yes we have them, they are called reform schools or juvenile detention centres

[talaniman]

You have to do more than just teach, as some students have other issues to be addressed. The earlier and quicker those issues are effectively addresssed the better.

[paraclete]

Schools are not the place to address social issues, while they might be a point of first contact they have a specific role to play and that is delivering education, anything beyond life skills training should be delivered by someoneelse. This is the mistake government makes, it tries to make existing services responsible for delivering new initiatives. This is the result of trying to minimise government spending and services

[talaniman]

Schools are where social skills and interactions take place and are also the only safe haven many kids have. Adults are not perfect and since most of the day is spent at school there have to be programs that enhance and teach those coping skills and give positive direction to young minds to go along with the ABC's.

In the ideal world parents, teachers and the adminitration works together, but that's not always the case, but why should kids suffer for adult flaws, or the lack of funds for a balanced education and learning experience?

Everybody isn't going to business school or be lawyers, or scientist. Nor are there enough alternatives or charter schools for everyone either.

[cdad]

Schools are where social skills and interactions take place and are also the only safe haven many kids have. Adults are not perfect and since most of the day is spent at school there have to be programs that enhance and teach those coping skills and give positive direction to young minds to go along with the ABC's.

In the ideal world parents, teachers and the adminitration works together, but thats not alway the case, but why should kids suffer for adult flaws, or the lack of funds for a balanced education and learning experience?

Everybody isn't going to business school or be lawyers, or scientist. Nor are there enough alternatives or charter schools for everyone either.

So you think government programing is the answer ? We all have flaws and almost nobody had a perfect childhood. It is part of what makes us who we are. That shouldn't require government intervention.

[paraclete]

It's and old but flawed argument, Tal, that schools should do more than educate. The right place to impart social skills is in the home, schools can do little more than introduce the student to the idea.

This is not an ideal world, teachers have a specific role to play and if they do that well, the students leave the school with some important skills which might make them employable or able to handle higher education. We are now in an era when few chilrdren might be able to pursue a favoured career path. To suggest they address social issues as well is one reason why schools don't achieve the purpose they are provided for.. You cannot turn the school into a quasi family, to do so sends the child the wrong signals, piting child against family because the teacher becomes the primary authority figure. I have seen it myself, a child bursting into tears with frustration when they find the information given to them by a teacher was wrong. Let teachers teach the subjects they are qualified to teach and let other's interact to deliver the services they are trained to deliver

[Wondergirl]

The right place to impart social skills is in the home ... Let teachers teach the subjects they are qualified to teach and let others interact to deliver the services they are trained to deliver

But parents aren't imparting skills in the home. And those "others" are who?

[talaniman]

I never said anything about social issues, but kids do have personal issues and the school does have to at least work with parents and local officials to address them whatever they may be.

Federal and state have to support those efforts with resources and options to help the locals. No one raises and educates kids in a vacuum, it's a collective effort.

[paraclete]

Kids have personal issues because boundries are not implemented in the home and disciple is all but non existent. The child is not the centre of everything and the sooner children are taught they have a place by parents the sooner schools can get back to doing what they are supposed to do. Parents aren't imparting skills because they were not taught them in the first place by their parents. The namby pamby ideas implemented over the years have only left parents powerless to implement discipline.

The vacuum exists now because of wrong policies, particularly discipline policies. And lack of self discipline is at the root of these issues we think children have. I put it to you ADHD was unknown before junk food and the permissive society

[talaniman]

The reality is there are problems to solve with our kids and the schools whether parents are doing the right thing or not for whatever reason.

You can't just discard the kids becaue the adults are whack. That's a lousy way to raise kids or run a society.