[socratesimnot]

My husband and I are having marital problems. If you would like to read our complete history see my discontinued thread, "selfish, self-centered boyfriend=selfish, self-centered husband." His problem with pornography has continued; sporadically he has been exposed. I am assuming there are other occasions that have just not been revealed to me. He never went to counseling with me until now although I practically begged--my final straw was the incident I describe below. I was going to separate from him as he only verbally committed to anything, not following through with counseling or changing his damaging habits. We have now gone to one joint counseling session with our parish priest and I have attended one in private.
The incident--He is very protective about his phone if I wish to use it. He says this is because his friends engage in "guy talk." Recently, I went to text (I didn't have my phone to use) and saw a text to his male friend/coworker about a female coworker. The conversation went like this:
FRIEND--"X is looking quite nice in her (insert required clothing of profession) today."
HUSBAND--"Damn straight. You're not just kidding. I think she caught me looking this morning!"
Then the conversation goes on about how this friend should offer her a fireball--a candy he keeps in his office. My husband then states he would much rather watch her eat a fireball than the male friend eat a fireball. (This is a large, round candy like a jaw-breaker that is very hot, so often licked. If put entirely in the mouth, it often protrudes in the cheek visibly because it is large). There was some back and forth joking about this. Reference to oral sex is assumed by me.
When confronted, he lied about it being an inside joke, that she is not competent at work and useless other than her looks and they have laughed about her eating all his friend's candies. HOWEVER--he has formerly told me that this female is exceedingly bright in a highly demanding and rigorous academic career, so she is NOT just attractive and useless. I am just not buying the lame candy excuse. I tell him this; he admits it, but says that is all. It's just "guy talk." FYI, his friend is also married, but he seems more like a prompter, a catalyst for my husband's comments. He doesn't partake actively, just goads and laughs.
I do not take part in gossip, but I know something may have occurred between this woman and a married man at the work place already. She was not married at the time but dating a high-school friend of my husband (just a big coincidence here). My husband shared this knowledge about her to me because he was concerned about the high-school friend getting burned (my husband thought that they may have been dating when this occurred). In any case, they married, had a child, and are now separated. She is around my husband daily, drives a convertible red corvette, has breast implants, is attractive and smart, and may have a previous sexual history with a married man at work (I can not verify this rumor, but it lingers in my mind). I have met her at parties, and she is friendly, has quite a potty mouth but comes across as intelligent, dresses very stylishly in flattering clothes (provocative yet not to the limit of "tacky"), and is quite naturally attractive (disregarding the implants). I must say that I do not blame her for my husband's assumedly unwanted attention at all. At this point I assume her innocence entirely.
However, I feel like I can not trust my husband, and I do have worries about the female coworker's propriety. I do not want to doubt him or be constantly wondering; I want a relationship of mutual respect and love.
He has gone from porn to words of lust directed publicly (to a friend in a risky place--work) in reality. In fact, the male texting friend was texting about the fireball in real time as this woman was in his office--very audacious and disrespectful to her. This startles me. His texts about her indicated that he was very interested in her sexually and they were expressed OPENLY WITH WORDS to another person WITHOUT SHAME. This is ACTION (talking is an action) planted in REALITY. This scares the begeezies out of me.
What else do I NOT know? If he made a move and it was reciprocated (as it may have been with another married man at the work place), where would this go?
Our priest had these take home messages for me last night:
1) Pornography is rampant, an addiction that requires “treatment” and “support”, and although it is wrong it is not the same as adultery nor does the spouse involved in it intend to hurt the partner.
2) I am taking it personally, and this is a “wrong” perspective. I should hold value in the fact that I am a daughter of God, and this is what matters.
3) The hurt will take time to heal even though I have forgiven.
4) I must be husband's support in tackling his addiction.
5) The lustful comments husband made about a female co-worker to a male co-worker do not indicate any intention to act.
6) I need to work on bettering myself and bringing my own faults to light to better our marriage.
I do want this marriage to work, but bottom-line I feel like this incident/history is being taken lightly and that alarms me. I would have expected the “addiction/rampant/support/nothing personal” line of thinking to have been presented in a secular counseling session, but not in one coming from the church; again, probably I am wrong, but I am afraid this is a precarious path our marriage is on and it is not being taken seriously enough.
If anyone, especially someone who has been through something similar or (another) priest has comments, I would really be grateful for your help.
I FEEL SO ALONE IN THIS! Thank you so very much for reading through all of this and taking the time to respond. God bless you!

[JudyKayTee]

I don't know where to start - do I think you are over reacting? Yes, on many levels.

The whole long description of the woman with the "implants" and the "red Covette" makes me wonder why you are so threatened and insecure.

There are literally a thousand threads about porn - maybe he's addicted. Maybe he isn't. Unless it's porn instead of you I truly don't know why you are so upset about it.

It appears he does nothing right in your eyes or nothing that reassures you. Why you checked his phone - and reading through pages of texts isn't just picking up his phone to use it - is beyond my understanding. Lack of trust is usually met by reasons not to trust.

I would keep up the counseling - I just don't know that I would choose a Priest, a man trained in religion, not relationships, to be the counselor.

Maybe your husband is every bit as "bad" as you have painted him - my feeling is that you have your own set of problems in this marriage.

You've been posting about your problems in this marriage since 2007 and nothing has changed - that's 5 years! The other thread was probably closed because it went from relationship counseling to religious counseling.

I think you either need to stop complaining and accept things, change things (which I don't think is going to happen) or leave. He lied to you when you were dating; you think he's lying to you now.

How long are you going to live like this?

[socratesimnot]

"The whole long description of the woman with the "implants" and the "red Corvette" makes me wonder why you are so threatened and insecure."

I am threatened by their daily proximity, his attraction to her, and the fact he has repeatedly lied to me. My husband likes women with larger breasts and only made that clear to me after we were married (how great). I have smaller cup size B now, but even A in college, but am petit in general. I don't have a confidence problem in the face of others--I will wear a bikini--but I know he is not impressed.. .

"Unless it's porn instead of you I truly don't know why you are so upset about it."

Any time he's substituting porn for me, it is porn instead of me. I do not understand.

"Lack of trust is usually met by reasons not to trust."

Reasons not to trust is usually met by lack of trust. Trust me--the reasons came first.

"I would keep up the counseling - I just don't know that I would choose a Priest, a man trained in religion, not relationships, to be the counselor."

I would love to go elsewhere (in addition) if he would go with me.

"You have your own set of problems in this marriage."

No doubt, I am far from perfect. This is just getting to deal-breaker point for me from my point of view. I would gladly work on myself.

You've been posting about your problems in this marriage since 2007 and nothing has changed - that's 5 years! . . .How long are you going to live like this?

We have been married for nearly 17 years. This is hard. This really does hurt. He is my companion and a friend. The night before I found the text we had a wonderful time at a college ball game, dinner, time together.. . We have children and many memories together. You are right, I am still complaining. It is so very hard to act; I think I want so badly for things in this area to be better. Sorry if I am unwittingly playing the victim; I am also highly educated and my teen daughters' friends comment on her mom being "so pretty." I state that only because it is probably the most unbiased report I can give on my looks. Frankly, I think I could use some more toning at the gym, but I'm above average. In short, I do have the confidence and means to move on; I just wish things would change.

Thanks for your comments. They were not very compassionate and at first tears came, but maybe I needed your direct approach.

[joypulv]

We see here time and time again stories of sexual banter at work and there is NO WAY to know if it involves or it's leading to infidelity or not. People get bored at work, and being in proximity to members of the opposite sex they tend to joke around. Your story is strangely long and mostly irrelevant, and I don't know anyone who really wants to read past stories as well. I see no reason why a spouse should have to fork over his phone for scrutiny (on pretense). I see no reason why you should leap from your husband finding this woman attractive and making fireball jokes to 'lusting' after her in some active way other than the normal way everyone has lustful thoughts about people around them. Your basic question should be how to deal with your mistrust.

Your priest to my mind has some sense in him about all this, even though he throws in some stuff about Standing By Your Man. I can't believe that you have never had a lustful thought about another man, whether an actor, singer, traffic cop, waiter, colleague, or just someone walking by. And by 'lustful' I don't mean imagining sex with him so much as just musing about how his looks. Maybe many men are more openly graphic about their fantasies than you and many women, but without those fantasies, it is difficult to maintain the very fidelity that keeps good marriages together.

[socratesimnot]

We see here time and time again stories of sexual banter at work and there is NO WAY to know if it involves or it's leading to infidelity or not. People get bored at work, and being in proximity to members of the opposite sex they tend to joke around. Your story is strangely long and mostly irrelevant, and I don't know anyone who really wants to read past stories as well. I see no reason why a spouse should have to fork over his phone for scrutiny (on pretense). I see no reason why you should leap from your husband finding this woman attractive and making fireball jokes to 'lusting' after her in some active way other than the normal way everyone has lustful thoughts about people around them. Your basic question should be how to deal with your mistrust.

Your priest to my mind has some sense in him about all this, even though he throws in some stuff about Standing By Your Man. I can't believe that you have never had a lustful thought about another man, whether an actor, singer, traffic cop, waiter, colleague, or just someone walking by. And by 'lustful' I don't mean imagining sex with him so much as just musing about how his looks. Maybe many men are more openly graphic about their fantasies than you and many women, but without those fantasies, it is difficult to maintain the very fidelity that keeps good marriages together.

So, yes, I have found other men attractive. Beauty exists in all nature; however, even artists make a distinction between a 'naked' and a 'nude.'
Yes, I do mistrust him. I do totally admit to looking out of curiousity at a few texts randomly (I did indeed need his phone and was in the vehicle with him). I did this snooping because of his unwarranted attitude about his phone (protectiveness of it; always has it with him; not wanting me to use it). I let him or the kids use mine if their battery runs down, will set it down.. .

[joypulv]

My point is that letting the leash out usually prolongs a good relationship rather than ruining it.

It also helps to joke! Treating normal jealousy (implants, Corvettes, fireballs) with a little humor goes a long way. Heck, I would have had him meet you in a restaurant for dinner with a fireball in each cheek and one in each bra cup under a sheer blouse. Use the same imagination that he apparently has lots of. Have some extras to hand out to the waiters and busboys and any other man between 20 and 60 with a sultry remark but in a light way. Tell him that he is having too much fun and you are thinking of ways to have just as much fun. A little tit for tat, but in a funny way. Make HIM worry. You admit that you are attractive! Use it.

[socratesimnot]

Joypulv, you are a riot! I generally have some sense of humor--rather a Brit-like wit and can really appreciate the imagery you concocted, but I have never been savvy in this--TIME TO MAKE A CHANGE. You are right; he is wayyyyy too secure in my love and loyalty. In fact, I try to downplay any attention I receive--maybe that should change.

I'm still not okay with the porn thing; still think it will take increasingly more and more to arouse him if it continues.. . Can't be healthy, no??

[joypulv]

I'm missing the porn part? When, where, what medium, how much porn?
And is the 'more and more to arouse him' a reality now, or you are worried about it happening in the future?

Sure, use your attractiveness to make him appreciate you more with a little jealousy of his own about you. A lot of marriages thrive on that. It doesn't have to be vicious or out of hand.

[JudyKayTee]

"The whole long description of the woman with the "implants" and the "red Corvette" makes me wonder why you are so threatened and insecure."

I am threatened by their daily proximity, his attraction to her, and the fact he has repeatedly lied to me. My husband likes women with larger breasts and only made that clear to me after we were married (how great). I have smaller cup size B now, but even A in college, but am petit in general. I don't have a confidence problem in the face of others--I will wear a bikini--but I know he is not impressed. . .

I will address this. I'm 5'4", right now about 105. I wear a 32DD. Oddly enough, I drive a Corvette. And I'm blonde. And I didn't buy the breasts - they're mine.

Women who are threatened by me in any way absolutely baffle me! I have never cheated, I've never dated or crossed the "banter" line with anyone who was not my declared partner, never. I worked in a bikini bar during college. Men said all kinds of things to my face. I'm sure they "bantered" behind my back.

Those of us who are blonde, drive Corvettes and are a 32DD also have morals and feelings and know when to draw the line.

And I'm the opposite side of the coin - you wonder if "he" would prefer a larger breasted woman who drives a Corvette. I wonder if "he's" interested in me BECAUSE I'm a larger breasted woman with a Corvette. I cannot control what people think or say about me - behind my back, that is.

The woman in his office who has you so suspicious probably wouldn't touch your husband with a fork and has no idea what is being said/done/joked about behind her back. Quite frankly, he doesn't sound like he's such a prize.

You need to remember that he married you. I'm sure he knew bigger breasted women then. He married you.

As far as the rest of it, my colleague, Joy, has the bases covered with one exception - years and years ago I went to a Priest as my marriage was falling apart. His only concern was the stand by your man angle and eternal damnation. He wasn't getting slapped around so it was probably easy for him to say.

[joypulv]

PLEASE forgive me but I am rolling on the proverbial floor.
I too have small breasts and my husband (now ex, but no animosity) liked bigger breasts, although mostly that was from a remark about wondering if I wished mine were bigger.
I feel the jealousy welling inside me already, JudyKayTee, LOL. As I laugh. Can't help it! Can't help it!

[JudyKayTee]

PLEASE forgive me but I am rolling on the proverbial floor.
I too have small breasts and my husband (now ex, but no animosity) liked bigger breasts, although mostly that was from a remark about wondering if I wished mine were bigger.
I feel the jealousy welling inside me already, JudyKayTee, LOL. As I laugh. Can't help it! Can't help it!

I wonder if there's still the "photo album" option on AMHD - I used to have some photos posted, nothing racy, but that's how I'm built.

When yours are perky mine will bounce against my knees when I walk.

It's just never come up in conversation before - maybe I'll change my screen name to my bra size. If I ever go on a dating site that would be a great screen name!

Off to check the photo album option - and then to find a photo or two.

[socratesimnot]

Judy, that may explain why you took it personally. I did not mean to offend. I am also petite, naturally blonde, but average busted. I specifically said his female coworker was nice, naturally pretty, dressed stylishly not tacky.. . All compliments.. . I didn't care for her foul language among professionals at the holiday dinner, though. The gossip about her affair with the married co-worker indeed worried me although I also said above, " I must say that I do not blame her for my husband's assumedly unwanted attention at all. At this point I assume her innocence entirely."
My husband is 6'4" and Antonio Banderas handsome, only actually better. I have been pretty surprised to have women come on to him in my presence, in fact, the mother of one of our children's classmates at a class function just out and out said, "Your husband is so HOT!" I never got a boob job although the hubby wondered (innocently, he said) if I ever considered it (this was brought up multiple times). So, I am secure in my abilities, my looks, and my value as a person. I absolutely think that what he said about this coworker was unwarranted and disrespectful to HER.
Sorry if I described you, but those are things that are attractive to most males and I was trying to paint an accurate and unbiased full picture. . . I don't think this makes her worthy of lewd comments, gossip (especially that which is slanderous), or the contempt of other women. Indeed, I have been the brunt of all of this as an attractive female, and maybe that's why I downplay. . .I had a female friend at work jokingly say, "X, I'm sure glad you are so nice because if you weren't it would be so easy to hate you." I do know that some women play up their assets in different ways. Any female born with beauty either chooses to downplay it and win people with their merit (talent, personality. . .) or they use it along with the rest of what they were given in a world that caters to it. I have always wanted to be recognized for "who I am" because the first thing people say to or about a pretty child from early on is "she's so pretty, etc." I longed to be truly known. Either way, if you have it you know it, but it can be played either way by a woman. However, a woman who wants every man's attention is a dangerous thing in my opinion. Right now I am just concerned that she has my man's attention, sees him more than I do, and just may not mind that he is married.

[socratesimnot]

Joy, too funny! I like my breasts just fine, in fact, in my family I'm just thankful to have a pair that haven't put me on the operating table or worse (knock on wood).. . Judy, more power to you. Not judging, just describing the coworker.

[socratesimnot]

Joy, has the bases covered with one exception - years and years ago I went to a Priest as my marriage was falling apart. His only concern was the stand by your man angle and eternal damnation. He wasn't getting slapped around so it was probably easy for him to say.

I am so sorry about your abuse! Glad you found someone or the personal strength for support to leave.. . My father was extremely verbally abusive although he could be very loving at other times; I never knew his mood. I know he loved me, and this is why I have never spoke of his abuse aloud--except to my mother recently, I loved him--he has passed on now--and to speak of it outside our family would have felt like a betrayal of him. A car could become a jail cell for an hour drive to my grandparents.. . So maybe that is why I am still here, accepting things with little or no change.

Geez, I probably need private counseling. Though I am functional, I'm sure I have lingering hang-ups.. . just writing this helps me see things more clearly. Thank you for helping me get it out.

[joypulv]

It just hit me at 5 am, first cup of coffee in me, that this sort of reminds me of my parents. My dad was SO handsome; my mother was pretty ordinary looking (not you), and didn't have a sexy figure. When we were little kids there were huge fights between our parents over women, even though the women were coming on to our dad. We called one The Menace. The threat never left; in fact it got worse, because in old age there were more and more widows glomming onto him, brazenly. My mother was insecure right until the day she died at 87. He outlived her. I inherited her looks and her insecurity. I've tried my entire life (I'm 65) to joke about it. My quiet, shy, sweet dad liked a good joke, not the boisterous loud kind, but the little ones, and he joked about his cancer and any misfortune that ever befell him.

[socratesimnot]

Joy and Judy, thank you so much. Both of you have helped me find some humor in all of this and somehow, some goals. They are: private counseling for me, joint counseling with him with a secular counselor, and a pivot of my perspective.. . If he's going to cheat, he will and it will come out--he's had many opportunities and has not yet, so I need to let it be about the coworker; if he comes to prefer porn exclusively to me or leaves it out by accident and the kids see it again, I will leave him. Does that sound like an over-reaction or in check with reality?
I am a normally methodical person who is passionate and very loyal when it comes to those I love, so I'm pretty sure I can over-react in my responses, Judy, as you said, but I only wrote the truth as plainly as I could.

Joy, yes.. . He is extraordinarily handsome, charismatic, and educated, and that is pretty rare for a man in the south--most I see are balding/pot-bellied, and don't have his charm or wit/intellect. In the south, there are two poles for women--either let yourself go, or maintain. There is no shortage of naturally attractive women who "maintain" where we live, so although I may stand out in a crowd, I am now middle-aged and there are plenty of us. Unfortunately, my hubby (unlike your father) responds and thrives on the attention with returned flirtation, and has even flirted in front of me with women. I see the woman's intent because, hey, I know all the signals to give, and he is responding.. if I ask him if he realized she was flirting, he will act all oblivious and says something like, "Oh, that's just X, she was just telling me about "whatever", I didn't notice." However, my younger brother made a very uncomfortable phone call to me to let me know that my hubby was behaving in a way toward his wife that made her feel uncomfortable--flirting, this went under my radar.. . (they were just married and she requested that he handle it, which I'm sure took a lot of nerve). You see, I DO NOT want to be a snooping mistrustful wife, and I only do it in spurts (like he was weird about the phone), or hey, I push the eject button on the cd player and a porn cd pops out.. . Then I will feel all insecure and look around the house because I feel like I'm a blind-sided fool.

So, bottom-line, it's even more complicated Joy, when the hubby likes or even thrives on such attention. I'm sure it boosts his confidence and gives him a break from old me--I have certainly heard all his stories many times, and I still listen and laugh, but maybe not while I flip my hair or touch his shoulder or rub my neck with the "ripple of my voice like a wild tonic" (to borrow from Fitzgerald).

[JudyKayTee]

I didn’t take it personally - not at all. I explained it from the side of the large-breasted woman who drives a Corvette. As far as gossip is concerned I believe I covered that no one can stop whatever people want to say about them AND if you are perceived to be a threat by other women you are a walking target. It is also not your “job” to defend her from whatever is said. Whether she is or isn’t “worthy” of the attention I have a feeling she can hold her own. I work in a 99.9% male dominated industry - I don’t have a foul mouth, I’m not hanging with the boys, but I can hold my own. Work as a bikini waitress for 5 minutes and you can handle anything.

I disagree that women should downplay their looks - looks are an advantage. I have gorgeous friends I lived with in NYC who were just that and nothing more. Gorgeous. They didn’t work on anything else, now they’re older, everyone is younger, and they are very unhappy. You have to strike a balance.

Your husband may be drop dead gorgeous (and mine isn’t chopped liver, by the way), but I would be more worried about his character - the comments about the co-worker, not telling her how things are (“I’m married and I don’t cheat”), him being attracted to a woman with a potty mouth, than I’d be worried about anything else. If she has a foul mouth I would think that would turn your husband off, not on.

It’s a compliment to you when people comment on how attractive your husband is - he married you, not them.

I don’t think a woman who wants the attention of every man is dangerous. I think she’s pathetic.

The bottom line is that you cannot control her. You cannot control him. You can control you - and your feelings and actions in this situation.

[socratesimnot]

It just hit me at 5 am, first cup of coffee in me, that this sort of reminds me of my parents. My dad was SO handsome; my mother was pretty ordinary looking (not you), and didn't have a sexy figure. When we were little kids there were huge fights between our parents over women, even though the women were coming on to our dad. We called one The Menace. The threat never left; in fact it got worse, because in old age there were more and more widows glomming onto him, brazenly. My mother was insecure right til the day she died at 87. He outlived her. I inherited her looks and her insecurity. I've tried my entire life (I'm 65) to joke about it. My quiet, shy, sweet dad liked a good joke, not the boisterous loud kind, but the little ones, and he joked about his cancer and any misfortune that ever befell him.

I need some coffee, too!
Such a sweet sadness in the story of your home; sweet because your father was a principled man who loved your mother, sad because maybe she never was convinced fully of his love.
All people have insecurities. Looks come with a high price of the continued expectation (with age the decline and quest for what was can devastate some women/men) and the nullification or neglect of other more or equally important attributes. No one wants to be "just a face." We only feel truly beautiful when we are fully known and accepted.

[socratesimnot]

I didn’t take it personally - not at all. I explained it from the side of the large-breasted woman who drives a Corvette. As far as gossip is concerned I believe I covered that no one can stop whatever people want to say about them AND if you are perceived to be a threat by other women you are a walking target. It is also not your “job” to defend her from whatever is said. Whether she is or isn’t “worthy” of the attention I have a feeling she can hold her own. I work in a 99.9% male dominated industry - I don’t have a foul mouth, I’m not hanging with the boys, but I can hold my own. Work as a bikini waitress for 5 minutes and you can handle anything.

I disagree that women should downplay their looks - looks are an advantage. I have gorgeous friends I lived with in NYC who were just that and nothing more. Gorgeous. They didn’t work on anything else, now they’re older, everyone is younger, and they are very unhappy. You have to strike a balance.

Your husband may be drop dead gorgeous (and mine isn’t chopped liver, by the way), but I would be more worried about his character - the comments about the co-worker, not telling her how things are (“I’m married and I don’t cheat”), him being attracted to a woman with a potty mouth, than I’d be worried about anything else. If she has a foul mouth I would think that would turn your husband off, not on.

It’s a compliment to you when people comment on how attractive your husband is - he married you, not them.

I don’t think a woman who wants the attention of every man is dangerous. I think she’s pathetic.

The bottom line is that you cannot control her. You cannot control him. You can control you - and your feelings and actions in this situation.

There's a lot of truth in your comments. I absolutely can only control my actions/feelings. I don't recommend to others to downplay looks, but this was just my way of dealing with being "dismissed" at "pretty."

[joypulv]

I think I am getting a clearer picture of your husband and your life.

My father was a principled man but he did not love my mother. He told me he wanted out, years ago, but he stayed with her first for us and then because his business was in a very small town and she'd get the house and alimony and he'd be in a dumpy apartment, if he could even find one.

She had an all out affair and tried to get that man to divorce his wife and marry her, but he refused. My father never cheated or did anything but be handsome and sweet and that drove women wild. (Yes, I am biased, and that probably affects how I saw your hubby at first.)