[classyT]

It is true that IVF is not explicitly listed as a sin, but like so many things, it is implied through an understanding of the whole Scripture. It doesn't say I should not smoke either, but we are to treat our bodies as a holy temple. Do you think that God would have a scientist intervene in such sacred matters as this? Is it not an indication of mankind's insatiable appetite to have what he wants, no matter what God wants?


Well, you hit the nail on the head, didn't you? "The Lord made our bodies" Yes, so if your body doesn't "work properly" as you put it, then what makes you think one is supposed to take the bull by the horns and see some doctor who may or not be a believer in God Almighty and ask them to make a baby for you? It's not a miracle. It's going outside of the natural order of things to have what you want. Go out and find a needy child to adopt.

Well, I'm sorry, but the process of creating sacred life is kind of a big deal I think. Don't even get me started on the act of destroying sacred life. That's in the Bible too, but it is sadly ignored.

Peace...

Sorry, I respectfully disagree.

The Lord Jesus healed everyone he came in contact with that needed it. I can't find one scripture where he didn't heal. A man or a woman was created to mulitply. If they cannot... that means there is a problem with their body. When someone has cancer... do you write them off? Do you not try to help them? Is the wisdom the Lord has given the physicians wrong and inappropriate for use to help someone's body kill cancer cells? Then why would their wisdom be wrong in helping someone have a baby when they cannot do it naturally?

Don't EVEN get me started on the act of destroying life either. For THAT my friend, IS indeed in the bible. I am against it completely. Apples to oranges... life and death. Not the same topic AT ALL.

What does it matter if IVF is used? It is STILL and always will be an ACT of God and it is STILL sacred. I don't understand why IVF somehow makes it less sacred? God ALWAYS has the final say.

Whatever is not of faith is a sin. I had my children naturally.. but wouldn't have thought twice if I had to use IVF. I guess I just have enough faith to believe God is always in control.

[dwashbur]

It is true that IVF is not explicitly listed as a sin, but like so many things, it is implied through an understanding of the whole Scripture. It doesn't say I should not smoke either, but we are to treat our bodies as a holy temple. Do you think that God would have a scientist intervene in such sacred matters as this? Is it not an indication of mankind's insatiable appetite to have what he wants, no matter what God wants?

Let's be clear: smoking has NOTHING to do with the passage you cite. The passage is talking about sex with a prostitute, and you cannot extend it to include things that ostensibly do damage to our bodies (do you go out in the sun? The UV rays do lots of damage to your "holy temple"), because the prostitution Paul referred to was TEMPLE prostitution, women who plied their trade to bring in money for the pagan temples that employed them. And when they did the act, they were doing it as an act of worship to their idol. So you are dead wrong that there is anything about smoking implied in this passage. Likewise, you can't argue for any implication about IVF or anything else based on this type of passage. Admit it: you have nothing on which to base your argument except emotion.

It's nice that you have children. Why would you begrudge other people the same blessing because something in their bodies malfunctioned? That's more than a little arrogant.

[mysticman72]

The Fall plunged mankind and Nature (including childbearing) into everything God did not want.

Ah, now I understand.

"Many others"?

You understand now because I said I have 3 children?

Yes, many others. 7 originally. 2 have passed.

[mysticman72]

Let's be clear: smoking has NOTHING to do with the passage you cite. The passage is talking about sex with a prostitute, and you cannot extend it to include things that ostensibly do damage to our bodies (do you go out in the sun? the UV rays do lots of damage to your "holy temple"), because the prostitution Paul referred to was TEMPLE prostitution, women who plied their trade to bring in money for the pagan temples that employed them. And when they did the act, they were doing it as an act of worship to their idol. So you are dead wrong that there is anything about smoking implied in this passage. Likewise, you can't argue for any implication about IVF or anything else based on this type of passage. Admit it: you have nothing on which to base your argument except emotion.

It's nice that you have children. Why would you begrudge other people the same blessing because something in their bodies malfunctioned? That's more than a little arrogant.

Excuse me... but I understand the context of the passage. It was simply an example of how modern-day "things" are not explicit in Scripture, but implied. Do you take everything at face value without applying the principles behind them? I'm not implying that IVF has anything to do with that passage. That would be absurd.

Emotion? I'm afraid that the only emotion is based in your tone, not mine. The fact is that embryos are selected based on criteria... that is, which ones are more apt to survive. What happens to the other ones? They are frozen. Do you really want your frozen embryos kept in storage and a lab having access to them? How do you know what they do with them?

Children are a blessing. I know because I have plenty of them. But, they are a blessing whether they are your own blood children. God is Sovereign. I do not judge how he created the earth, nor do I judge the things that happen on this earth. But I know that things happen for a reason, many times for reasons we do not understand. My suggestion to you is that you or I may not know the reasons people cannot have children. We leave that in God's hands.

But, to use a process that goes outside of the process God has ordained because we don't like what we've been given is "a little arrogant". Like it or not, that is my belief. I respect yours. I ask the same.

Peace...

[Synnen]

Well, you hit the nail on the head, didn't you? "The Lord made our bodies" Yes, so if your body doesn't "work properly" as you put it, then what makes you think one is supposed to take the bull by the horns and see some doctor who may or not be a believer in God Almighty and ask them to make a baby for you? It's not a miracle. It's going outside of the natural order of things to have what you want. Go out and find a needy child to adopt.

So... nobody had better treat the cancer in their bodies, because if their bodies are faulty, then GOD caused it, right?

And if you're born with a cleft palate, or an operable disfigurement or a congenital problem (such as some forms of deafness), then you should absolutely NOT use science to get past those problems, and just live with them as long as you can--which in the case of a severely cleft palate means days at the most?

I guess I'd better never hear about you going to the doctor or the hospital, since your body is God's and however imperfect it is, it's HIS imperfections.

God, that angle just makes me SICK. It took me 10 years and 5 doctors and a whole TON of treatments to FINALLY get pregnant. I would have done IVF in a heartbeat if it had been affordable.

Anyone who can state "go find a needy child to adopt" has NEVER gone through infertility issues--OR the issues that go with adoption. You have NO idea what you're talking about, so please don't preach hypocrisy about whether a loving god would want people to become parents with available science.

If you DO eschew medical science and completely depend on faith healing, then you have my apologies. Otherwise, I stand by the fact that the physical and mental anguish I went through with both my adoption story and my conception story should not be made to be less than the miracles they were.

[mysticman72]

Sorry, I respectfully disagree.

The Lord Jesus healed everyone he came in contact with that needed it. I can't find one scripture where he didn't heal. A man or a woman was created to mulitply. If they cannot....that means there is a problem with their body. When someone has cancer...do you write them off? Do you not try to help them? Is the wisdom the Lord has given the physicians wrong and inappropriate for use to help someone's body kill cancer cells? Then why would their wisdom be wrong in helping someone have a baby when they cannot do it naturally?

Don't EVEN get me started on the act of destroying life either. For THAT my friend, IS indeed in the bible. I am against it completely. Apples to oranges....life and death. not the same topic AT ALL.

What does it matter if IVF is used? It is STILL and always will be an ACT of God and it is STILL sacred. I don't understand why IVF somehow makes it less sacred? God ALWAYS has the final say.

Whatever is not of faith is a sin. I had my children naturally..but wouldn't have thought twice if I had to use IVF. I guess I just have enough faith to believe God is always in control.

I'm afraid there's not much I can say that will calm your anxiety over my astonishing belief that IVF is not God's will. I could go on a long diatribe about the process and how it circumvents the natural order of how sacred life should be created, but you would still not be swayed, nor would it bring you any closer to understanding my position.

I absolutely believe in the healing power of Jesus. I've seen it. So, what do we as Christians do when we need healing? We go to Jesus. If Jesus does not heal, what do we do? Accept it. The problem with people (in my opinion) is that we do not accept the bad things that happen to us, but readily accept the good. Does not God make the rain fall on the just and on the unjust? Does He not make the sun shine on the just and on the unjust?

Is it possible to accept that the knowledge you are so willing to ascribe to physicians as "God-given" is not God's knowledge but man's? Is it possible that God would give mankind knowledge that is contrary to His will? My friend, did God give men the knowledge to create a nuclear bomb that would kill over 100,000 people at Nagasaki? That knowledge did not come from God. That came from the brilliant minds of men with no moral compass, not from God.

I hope you don't burn me at the stake, but if you do, I will understand.

Peace...

[mysticman72]

So... nobody had better treat the cancer in their bodies, because if their bodies are faulty, then GOD caused it, right?

Cancer is not a "fault" of the body that happens at birth usually. It is a disease, that if not treated can cause the death of the individual. It is a matter of life and death, not a matter of what we want or don't want.

And if you're born with a cleft palate, or an operable disfigurement or a congenital problem (such as some forms of deafness), then you should absolutely NOT use science to get past those problems, and just live with them as long as you can--which in the case of a severely cleft palate means days at the most?

Having children is an option, not a requirement for living. I thought I made that clear before. Apples to oranges.

I guess I'd better never hear about you going to the doctor or the hospital, since your body is God's and however imperfect it is, it's HIS imperfections.

I'm having a tooth removed Friday in fact. Decayed tooth. To prevent infection. And this is related to having a lab technician take a sperm and embryo from our bodies and make a baby how?

God, that angle just makes me SICK. It took me 10 years and 5 doctors and a whole TON of treatments to FINALLY get pregnant. I would have done IVF in a heartbeat if it had been affordable.

Okay... sorry that makes you sick.

Anyone who can state "go find a needy child to adopt" has NEVER gone through infertility issues--OR the issues that go with adoption. You have NO idea what you're talking about, so please don't preach hypocrisy about whether a loving god would want people to become parents with available science.

Oh, I didn't know that you knew about my life so well. Yes, adoption is difficult, very difficult (and expensive I might add). I have 3 blood children and 7 adopted from abused homes. God didn't create science or genetic manipulation or IVF or cloning or many of the other scientific advances. Mankind did that.

If you DO eschew medical science and completely depend on faith healing, then you have my apologies. Otherwise, I stand by the fact that the physical and mental anguish I went through with both my adoption story and my conception story should not be made to be less than the miracles they were.

I don't discount medical science altogether. It has its place, but that place is not in reproduction. I'm sorry for your anguish and pain. I've been through a bit myself. That doesn't change the morality of the issue at hand.

Have you never had a discussion with someone you disagreed with? Do you not realize that other people in the world have different beliefs and opinions? If you haven't, get used to it. It's a big world.

Peace...

[classyT]

I'm afraid there's not much I can say that will calm your anxiety over my astonishing belief that IVF is not God's will. I could go on a long diatribe about the process and how it circumvents the natural order of how sacred life should be created, but you would still not be swayed, nor would it bring you any closer to understanding my position.

I absolutely believe in the healing power of Jesus. I've seen it. So, what do we as Christians do when we need healing? We go to Jesus. If Jesus does not heal, what do we do? Accept it. The problem with people (in my opinion) is that we do not accept the bad things that happen to us, but readily accept the good. Does not God make the rain fall on the just and on the unjust? Does He not make the sun shine on the just and on the unjust?

Is it possible to accept that the knowledge you are so willing to ascribe to physicians as "God-given" is not God's knowledge but man's? Is it possible that God would give mankind knowledge that is contrary to His will? My friend, did God give men the knowledge to create a nuclear bomb that would kill over 100,000 people at Nagasaki? That knowledge did not come from God. That came from the brilliant minds of men with no moral compass, not from God.

I hope you don't burn me at the stake, but if you do, I will understand.

Peace...

Mankind has and will take good things that God has provided them ( such as wisdom) and turn it to do harm. It is because of our sin nature. We both know and understand that.

Of course we ask Jesus to heal us first. But if HE chooses to use physicians to heal us there is nothing in the world wrong with it. Good Grief... wasn't our dear buddy who wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts a physician? YEAH... he was. The Lord uses the medical professionals to get his purposes done. My mother just had open heart surgery, if she hadn't had it, she would have died. I prayed like crazy for the Lord to heal her so she wouldn't have to go through it but instead he healed her through a couple of great cardiologist and surgeon. He still gets the glory.

I'm not going to burn you at the stake for disagreeing with me on this topic. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I am saying that is ALL you have is an opinion. Because there isn't a thing in the bible to state it is a sin. And that's a fact.. Jack. :)

[dwashbur]

Excuse me... but I understand the context of the passage. It was simply an example of how modern-day "things" are not explicit in Scripture, but implied. Do you take everything at face value without applying the principles behind them?

Excuse me... but you could do the same with racism, degradation of women, and anything else you want to come up with and find ways to claim that it's "implied" in the Bible. That's nothing more than manipulating the Scriptures to fit your preconceived notions. There is no modern-day "thing" implied in the 1 Corinthians passage. Lots of people try to read it in, but they're wrong. It's as simple as that. Paul wrote what he wrote. Get over it.

But, to use a process that goes outside of the process God has ordained because we don't like what we've been given is "a little arrogant". Like it or not, that is my belief. I respect yours. I ask the same.

Peace...

It's arrogant because you haven't demonstrated that it "goes outside" anything. You haven't demonstrated that "God has ordained" only one way to get pregnant. Hey, when it came to Jesus, God violated that "ordained" method himself! You're not demonstrating anything, you're just saying it. And as you said, it's your belief. It's just that. Belief. Not fact. And you have nothing to back up that belief. As a patriotic American, I will adamantly support your right to hold any belief you want regardless of lack of evidence, or in the face of strong evidence to the contrary. But you have no business declaring that this is something that God has "ordained" because it simply isn't so. Hold your belief if you want to, but don't try to claim it's biblical. It's not. So again, get over it.

[mysticman72]

Excuse me... but you could do the same with racism, degradation of women, and anything else you want to come up with and find ways to claim that it's "implied" in the Bible. That's nothing more than manipulating the Scriptures to fit your preconceived notions. There is no modern-day "thing" implied in the 1 Corinthians passage. Lots of people try to read it in, but they're wrong. It's as simple as that. Paul wrote what he wrote. Get over it.

Sorry, but just because we think we are "enlightened" in our modern times doesn't mean we are morally correct. That's fine. And, the next time I catch myself lusting after a woman I will quickly gouge out my eye so that I don't sin any more. "Get over it?" We're not in high school anymore. I'm trying to have a civil discussion.

It's arrogant because you haven't demonstrated that it "goes outside" anything.

So... even though an egg and sperm are taken from the insides of people and taken outside of the aforementioned people and manipulated in a lab dish, you don't see how that goes "outside" of natural sexual reproduction? I've had a few kids... I know how it's done.

You haven't demonstrated that "God has ordained" only one way to get pregnant.

It wasn't until recently in earth's history that IVF was even an option. I don't remember God removing sperm from Adam and an egg from Eve and saying "I will create a baby for you". He created the male and female to reproduce using the parts they have and putting them in designated spots. It's a bit uncomfortable having to explain that. That was the only way since the beginning of time. And now, because of the achievements of science, the ability to manipulate the creation of a sacred life has come to pass.

Hey, when it came to Jesus, God violated that "ordained" method himself! You're not demonstrating anything, you're just saying it. And as you said, it's your belief. It's just that. Belief. Not fact. And you have nothing to back up that belief. As a patriotic American, I will adamantly support your right to hold any belief you want regardless of lack of evidence, or in the face of strong evidence to the contrary. But you have no business declaring that this is something that God has "ordained" because it simply isn't so. Hold your belief if you want to, but don't try to claim it's biblical. It's not. So again, get over it.

Yeah, it's my belief and considering the way God made the human body, I don't see a need to change that. Heck, I enjoy it that way, don't you? I believe it's pretty clear how God intended human beings to be conceived. If you can't see that, then I can't help you. I really don't have much to "get over" my friend. I'm having a discussion. I haven't taken anything personal.

I'm afraid that our discussion is over because it's obviously not going to end well. So, I will end it in the hopes that we will keep the discussion from turning into a not-so-classy bar brawl :)

Peace to you...

[mysticman72]

Mankind has and will take good things that God has provided them ( such as wisdom) and turn it to do harm. It is because of our sin nature. We both know and understand that.

Of course we ask Jesus to heal us first. But if HE chooses to use physicians to heal us there is nothing in the world wrong with it. Good Grief....wasn't our dear buddy who wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts a physician? YEAH...he was. The Lord uses the medical professionals to get his purposes done. My mother just had open heart surgery, if she hadn't had it, she would have died. I prayed like crazy for the Lord to heal her so she wouldn't have to go thru it but instead he healed her thru a couple of great cardiologist and surgeon. He still gets the glory.

I'm not gonna burn you at the stake for disagreeing with me on this topic. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I am saying that is ALL you have is an opinion. Because there isn't a thing in the bible to state it is a sin. And thats a fact ..Jack. :)

I'm glad you aren't going to burn me at the stake. That would kind of hurt. We will agree to disagree :) God bless you. And I pray that your mother has a speedy recovery, in Jesus' name.

Peace...

[Wondergirl]

Since this has turn into a discussion, I am hereby moving this thread to that board. We have no bar brawl board, so thanks for keeping this discussion gentle.

[paraclete]

just read the opening passages. What is it with catholics that they don't understand the unforgivable sin is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. In my lifetime I have heard a number of things described as an unforgivable sin but in reality they are just a sin that a particular person could not forgive or that a Church has regarded as particularly heinous, but how can two people in love commit an unforgivable sin by attempting to fulfill their God given desire to have a family. Did Jesus die for nothing?

please take this in the right way I was also raised a catholic but so much of the doctrine which has no biblical foundation I just cannot accept. It is nothing more than man's logic

[mysticman72]

just read the opening passages. what is it with catholics that they don't understand the unforgiveable sin is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. In my lifetime I have heard a number of things described as an unforgiveable sin but in reality they are just a sin that a particular person could not forgive or that a Church has regarded as particularly heinous, but how can two people in love commit an unforgiveable sin by attempting to fulfill their God given desire to have a family. did Jesus die for nothing?

please take this in the right way I was also raised a catholic but so much of the doctrine which has no biblical foundation I just cannot accept. it is nothing more than man's logic

From what I read in the article, the pastor told her that she was a "grave immoral sinner". I didn't read where the pastor said that it was an unforgivable sin. So, perhaps the thread got off to a bad start with bad information.

As Dr. Hauss said in the article, the issue isn't just that IVF is outside the marital sex act. It's is also about the fact that embryos are destroyed. Many embryos may be tried in order to produce a pregnancy. In this process, embryos are either frozen or destroyed, depending on whether the couple is willing to pay for storage of them.

The Catholic belief is that those embryos are sacred life and should not be treated in such a fashion and certainly not destroyed. I've alluded to this fact earlier, but really haven't focused on that aspect that much.

The funny thing is that you were raised Catholic and don't have the same beliefs, yet I grew up non-Catholic and believe the same way they do about IVF, birth control and abortion. Life has a funny way of turning around.

Peace...

[JudyKayTee]

I posted exactly what I heard. Maybe it was bad information but, if so, it was bad info which was broadcast.

Or maybe someone is back tracking.

[mysticman72]

I posted exactly what I heard. Maybe it was bad information but, if so, it was bad info which was broadcast.

Or maybe someone is back tracking.

The pastor should have approached the situation differently that's for sure.

Heck, I didn't read the article thoroughly enough till just now. The article does not include any information about anything being "unforgivable". My first two posts were based on the notion that he said it was an "unforgivable sin", which is not the Catholic position at all. It is a sin, but not "unforgivable".

Peace...

[paraclete]

The funny thing is that you were raised Catholic and don't have the same beliefs, yet I grew up non-Catholic and believe the same way they do about IVF, birth control and abortion. Life has a funny way of turning around.

Peace...

I haven't though much about the detail of IVF. I expect that the situation of destroying an embrio is no different to abortion. I wonder what the priest would counsel someone who had an abortion. Would he hand out a guilt trip or try to restore the person? This is why I have such difficulty, having been treated in much the same way over something much more trivial. I think that a Priest handing out a guilt trip in this situation is abominal and a failure to recognise the truth of the Gospel. Sin is sin, there is no a hierarchy of sin and all are forgiven and covered by the blood of Jesus

It took many years but I came back into the Church by a different door, I wonder if all who face this situation will be so lucky

[classyT]

I haven't though much about the detail of IVF. I expect that the situation of destroying an embrio is no different to abortion.

Hmmm? Interesting thought. Not sure I feel the same way but I would need more info. Intent does matter too... I think. But I don't know. People who use IVF are looking to have a baby... not destroy an embryo. But your comment did give me pause... somethng to consider.

[Synnen]

There is an option besides storing or destroying, you know, and many couples opt to use it: donating embryos. They're given to couples who either cannot create a viable embryo themselves, or who cannot afford the entire process of IVF.

[Wondergirl]

And thousands of embryos don't have to be created -- one couple recently in the news had created five of them, used two of them for themselves (resulting in fraternal twins) and then via their doctor donated the other three to infertile couples.