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timonga78 · Feb 14, 2012, 11:29 AM

Hello,

I am trying to install a new light fixture to an existing ceiling box. The box was not in use prior. The ceiling box contains typical white/black/exposed copper ground wiring. However, the only possible switch that could be used to control this fixture contains only a red/black/ground wire set, and is a standard pole switch. When I install the fixture, the light works, but the switch (or any other switch) doesn't turn it off. I replaced the switch thinking it might be the culprit, but the problem persists. The house is relatively new (2007). Would it be possible the builder installed the ceiling box solely as a hot line for a ceiling fan with its own power control and not have wired it to the switch? From what I can tell that empty switch doesn't control any outlets either.

Thanks for any help.
Tim

ballengerb1 · Feb 14, 2012, 11:45 AM

It is rare but not impossible for this box to be unswitched, I have one too. Do you get 120 vac off either wire to the switch when you ground your other probe? What color wires are connected to the switch?

hkstroud · Feb 14, 2012, 12:39 PM

only possible switch that could be used to control this fixture contains only a red/black/ground wire set

Could that be a black, white, red and ground wires (3-conductor cable)?

From what I can tell that empty switch doesn't control any outlets either.

Did you check the top and bottom of each outlet?

Could be that builder ran a switch leg (with neutral) from an split outlet and later someone ran a cable to the ceiling but wired it to the constant hot of the outlet. Confused, they gave up and did not use the ceiling box.

First check the top and bottom of each outlet. Outlets can be split such that one half is hot all the time and the other half is controlled by the switch.

Highly unlikely that builder installed a switch that does nothing. Each room is required to have at least one switched lighting outlet. That switched lighting outlet can be a light fixture or a receptacle.

jcaron2 · Feb 14, 2012, 01:13 PM

Is there only one set of wires entering the ceiling box? (i.e. only one white wire, one black, and one ground)? The reason I ask is this: If there are two sets of wires in that box, one set may be feeding power (i.e. black is constantly hot and white is neutral), whereas the other set goes off to the switch. Meanwhile, back in the switch box, the electrician may have colored the white wire red (using a red marker or whatever) to indicate that it is switched hot.

If that was the case, the two black wires should get wire-nutted together in the ceiling box (but not connected to the light), and the two white wires should connect to the two terminals on the light.

timonga78 · Feb 15, 2012, 09:29 AM

Thanks for the responses. The ceiling box only has a white/black/ground. One set. In the switch box, you have two switches. The one on the left controls a closet light which works. The one on the right is the switch in question. Both the red and the black going into it are hot. Also, I have tested every outlet in this bedroom and well as in the adjacennt hallway with the switch on and off. It has no effect.

I have attached links to pics of the switch box. There seem to be three sheaths coming in. Two have black and white wires (left and right) and the middle sheath has a black/red.

Thanks,
Tim

http://tinyurl.com/7rqw46m
http://tinyurl.com/7x39a4r

timonga78 · Feb 15, 2012, 09:30 AM

I also meant to add that the white wires seem to be pigtailed off but not connecting to anything.

ballengerb1 · Feb 15, 2012, 10:10 AM

Those white wires are your neutral and they all go out to fixtures. The switch on the right with the red wires appears to be a 3 way switch, it controls something along with a second switch likely at the other end of the room. Have you tested for power off the blacks going to and from the switches?

jcaron2 · Feb 15, 2012, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by timonga78

Both the red and the black going into it are hot.

That's very strange. When you measured them, did you remove them from the switch, or did you measure them as is with the switch in place? If the latter, then both should be hot when the switch is on, but only one should be hot when the switch is off. If they both stay hot regardless of the position of the switch, disconnect them from the switch and remeasure. Now if only one is hot, it means your switch is faulty (and is shorted, i.e. permanently on even when you think you've switched it off - which would explain why the fixture never turns off). That would be a really, really easy fix - just replace the switch. Otherwise, if they're both still hot even with the switch disconnected, then the switch is doing absolutely nothing, and clearly the circuit isn't wired up the way the contractor intended.

EDIT: If this is a three-way switch (which is the normal scenario when you'd see both black and red hooked up), then there's apparently nothing hooked to the common! (The third wire connected to the switch is the ground, yes?)

timonga78 · Feb 15, 2012, 12:31 PM

Yeah I think I may need a professional to come in. The black is always 120 when in the switch. The red varies from 120 when the switch is on to 52 (? ) when the switch is off. Clearly something is amiss.

jcaron2 · Feb 15, 2012, 02:05 PM

That might be a good sign. When the switch is off, the red floats (i.e. it's not directly tied to any hot or neutral. Since the impedance is very high, it's not unusual for resistance in the wire to result in a strange varying voltage measurement (though it would be more typical if it went to 52 mV, not 52 V - are you sure your voltmeter didn't automatically change range?).

The question is, where is the other end of that red wire? Clearly it's not in the ceiling box; that one's black. With the right tester, you could potentially trace the red wire through the wall to see what that switch controls, but at this point it doesn't seem likely that it controls the ceiling box. :(

Given that, and the fact that your ceiling box is apparently hard-wired in the "on" position, perhaps you should consider a wireless remote-control switch like the ones commonly used for ceiling fans. I think they're typically less than $20.

hkstroud · Feb 15, 2012, 03:51 PM

Bob,
Like you, I at first thought that the switch on the right was a 3-way. After looking more closely I realized that the second black wire, that appears to be there, is a shadow.

Tim,
Remove outlet cover plates until you find an outlet that has a red wire in the box. We know that the wiring in the switch box was original wiring because of all the spray on the wires. A electrician would not install a switch that did nothing. The switch and cable on the left obviously goes to the closet.

That leaves the 2-wire cable on the right and the 3-wire cable. So either the 2-wire cable is bring power to the switch box and unswitched power is going to an outlet on the black of the 3-wire cable and switch power going to the outlet through the switch. Or the power is coming to the box on the black of the 3-wire cable from an outlet and switched power is going back to the outlet on the red. Power would also be going to another outlet close to the switch (probably beneath it) on the 2-wire cable.

Since there is no red wire in the ceiling outlet I still say that some one tried to install a ceiling fixture from a switched outlet and got confused.

So find the red wire in an outlet box and let us know how it is connected.

PS
If I am correct, the ceiling box will probably be an "old work" box. That is, one that is clamped to the ceiling dry wall, not nailed to a ceiling joist.

PS to my PS.
Disconnect the red wire from the switch just to see what happens.

timonga78 · Feb 16, 2012, 01:02 PM

Thanks guys. The red wire is capped off in an outlet across the room. So it looks like it was set to be a switched outlet or it was and someone capped it. So removing the red at the switch does nothing, as expected. Also, looking closer at the ceiling box, it is secured to the joist and is rated for 50lbs. So the fact that it is always hot isn't surprising as it looks like it is for a ceiling fan/light fixture. Of course, after sharing that fact with my wife, she now wants a ceiling fan, so I guess I will be installing that on Saturday.

So all in all, that switch doesn't bother me as the outlet it used to control is behind the dresser anyhow and nothing is currently there. I will install a wireless switch for the fan and happy wife, happy life. :-)

Thanks for all of your help everyone.

Tim

hkstroud · Feb 16, 2012, 01:48 PM

If ceiling box had been wired for ceiling fan/light there would be a red, black and white wire. Remember I said if it was wired later it would probably be an old work box. Still believe some one installed it later and wired it incorrectly.

However, if you now want a ceiling fan/light you will need a constant hot. So your plan for a remote controlled fan is best, leaving the wiring as is.