[helicopterPilot]

Hi everyone !

Ok, a little background on the car

My mom owned it and it was well maintained with all services. Over the years, the transmission started slipping and eventually pooched. So she gave me the car. I bought a used transmission and installed it myself with the help of the manual. I bagged and tagged every thing and put the new tranny in with ease. Drove it for 2 weeks and that's where this problem started.

I started the car, everything was fine. Drove for 2 minutes and she suddenly stalled so I pulled over. I tried to restart it but she didn't start and I would get the odd backfire. She just cranks and cranks...

Things I already did to try and find the cause : While trying to start the car, I had the oil cap removed and could visibly see the valves moving so I know the starter is good and the gear is not stripped. I also have a booster pack and a well charged batt so its not the battery. So I started with ( fuel, air, spark and timing) I replaced all the spark plugs and tested each wire to make sure spark was delivered... It is. I disconnected my exhaust at the catalytic because I heard some stories off those clogging up pretty bad. And I also had a code P0420 (P0420 Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1), still no start. I disconnected the fuel line at the engine and there is fuel . I checked every fuse under the hood as well as under the dash. I double checked all the sensors that were disconnected when I was working on the transmission, there all good. I started thinking about the timing belt. Went threw old receipts and found my mom had it changed just last year. I'm going outside right now to check the air filter, just in case... Lol. But that's it, I AM TOTALLY STUMPED! I can't wait to find out what's wrong so that I can fix it. I'm now thinking sensors but I'm not experienced, I just have common sense.


If anyone can help! In any way. Maybe I overlooked something stupid ;) yes I have gas haha...

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Thoughts:

. Clean the main ECM ground.

. Verify that the Check Engine Light comes on for 2 seconds and then goes out, when the ignition switch is turned to ON (Position II).

. Check/replace the Crankshaft Position Sensor and the Camshaft Position Sensor. Exposed to high heat and vibration, the extremely thin coating of insulation on these tightly wound sensor coil wires can break, causing an internal electrical short. Heat can, also, crack the sensor's housing and even cause the coil windings to expand, leading to failure.

. Check the ignition switch for wear, pitting, or melting.

My gut is that the Crankshaft Position Sensor is bad.

[helicopterPilot]

Thanks TxGreaseMonkey for getting back to me so quikly.

So.. wheres the ecm ground? Haha

Is the ECM the computer? I had the obd scanner plugged in so would that indicate a good ground?

The engine light does stay on but like I said earlier, I have the p0420 code bad catalyc... low bank...

As for the crankshaft sensor, I unplugged the sensor and cleaned the wiring plug/harness.

Im not sure what you mean for the ignition switch but I use the autostart...

Anyway, Im going to remove the sensor... what should I be looking for? Or should I just replace it?

Thanks again, I can't tell you how much this helps

HAPPY NEW YEARS!!

[TxGreaseMonkey]

The ECM (computer) ground is likely located on the thermostat housing. Try clearing the P0420 code with your scanner. Then, turn the ignition switch to Position II and tell me if the Check Engine Light comes on for 2 seconds and then goes out. I would likely replace the Crankshaft Position Sensor.

Did you test all under hood and under dash fuses with a test light or multimeter? Visual inspection is not good enough. You want to test for power through the fuse. Be very thorough, since it will save a lot of time and money. Set multimeter to DCV, turn ignition switch to ON (Position II), touch the black test lead to ground, and touch the red test lead, in turn, to each test point on the fuse. The meter should record 12+ volts. Voltage must be recorded at each test point on a fuse; otherwise, the fuse is bad. Alternatively, use the same procedure with a test light.

I would reconnect the catalytic converter. It wouldn't surprise me if the converter is fine and the downstream oxygen sensor is bad. I saw this recently on a Honda Accord. Once you get your Civic running again (i.e. comes off NORS status), start using 5W-20 full synthetic engine oil; e.g. Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Platinum. Change the oil and filter every 6,000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first. It's better for your engine, better for your emissions system, and better for the environment.

Ensure you can hear the fuel pump run, when the ignition switch is turned to ON (Position II).

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Ignition Switch Replacement

1. Disconnect negative battery cable.

2. Remove dashboard lower cover and knee bolster.

3. Disconnect 5-P connector from under dash fuse box and 7-P connector from main wiring harness.

4. Remove steering column covers.

5. Insert key and turn it to "0".

6. Remove two screws from switch and replace.

[helicopterPilot]

hey! So I got DRL (daytime running lights) 2 days before the breakdown on my instrument panel.I didn't think much about because that's the least of my problems but... What are the odds that could be related to the ignition switch?

and all the fuses were checked with a test light

I installed the cat back on.

and the fuel pump sounds fine, it primes for 2 sec

I just tried to clear the codes but the scanner just says an error has occurer 1(0x1) #5 when I try to press erase codes

Im doing my best to do my research online...

thanks

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Manual or automatic transmission?

There may be a link. The flow is from the + battery terminal, to the under hood fuse box, to the ignition switch, to the under dash fuse box, to the instrument panel.

[TxGreaseMonkey]

I think the code should clear. Try disconnecting the negative. Battery cable for 15 seconds and see if the code goes away.

Next, try to devise a test for the ECM. Conceptually, the ECM is a giant power transistor, whose job it is to provide the proper voltage to a host of sensors under constantly changing conditions. Therefore, chose one or more sensors that have reference and signal voltages. Check to see if a sensor that is supposed to receive 5 reference volts is receiving it or not. If you are only receiving a fraction of a volt, the ECM may be bad.

Ultimately, I think you will find the problem is with the Crankshaft Position Sensor, Camshaft Position Sensor, ignition switch, or ECM. Be sure to clean the main ECM ground, wherever it's located. This assumes the timing belt has not slipped. You may need to have that checked--see if it's still under warranty.

[helicopterPilot]

Ok, so I concentrated on the crankshaft sensor. I got it out! Man, shouldv seen me curse at that pulley haha.

Here's where I'm at. I opened the timing belt cover and it was jam packed with belt shredding. Really small hair like shreads. Now I noticed the magnetic tip off the sensor was well coated with this stuff, no metal showing So I cleaned it off like new.

Now, why would it fill up with belt shredding? Im sure there is not suppose to be any or very little but...

So my plan is just to clean off everything in there and just slap it back together. I'm trying to figure how to test the sensor with the om meter. Is that looking for trouble, should I just replace it?

If you think of anything I should do first or look at while its all open, please let me know

Thanks for your patience and all your help

-Mathieu

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Sounds like the guy who last year replaced the timing belt didn't do a good job. There is a guide in front of the crankshaft timing belt pulley, which should be installed with the concave surface facing out. If the mechanic installed it improperly, it could easily start shredding the timing belt.

If I were you, I would remove the crankshaft pulley bolt, crankshaft pulley, upper and lower covers, and timing belt guide. Basically, you need to learn how to properly replace the timing belt. I did it on my Civic about 8 months ago--it's a fun project. It's best to get a crankshaft pulley holder and a 40" breaker bar, to remove the pulley bolt. If that belt is shredding, do you really want it on your car? A well-maintained Civic can go 400,000 miles; therefore, do the job right and enjoy all that you will learn. I think you have zeroed-in on the real problem--victory is close! See that the engine starts and then consider replacing the timing belt yourself.

[helicopterPilot]

Sweet! So I got a little impatient and just cleaned off all the shredding , replaced the sensor and put it all back together. The car still had the same problem. Lol, I had the pulley off and lower case and upper taken off! Haha oh well, I can probably take it all off in half the time now.

Im going to try and get it done today, Ill let you know :)

Thank you very much!!

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Did you try to start it?

[helicopterPilot]

Yes... haha, are you trying to say I shouldn't of tried starting it. Would it bend valves or something?

So I found the problem. The auto tension pulley is done. The spring broke threw its anchor hole. I had side to side play on the pulley and the bolt for the pulley is chewed up. So I took it off, aligned top dead center on both crankshaft and camshaft pulley, now Im just waiting for parts, no one is open today.

I just hope this mild weather stays, I worked on it the other day at - 27 in an unheated garage, not fun.

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Nice job. The tensioner pulley should actually be replaced every time the T-belt is replaced--I went with a Dayco. The following info. Should help:


Timing Belt Removal and Replacement

Replace timing belt every 90,000 miles or 6 years, whichever comes first. Honda will charge $700 to $750 to change the timing belt, alternator belt, A/C compressor belt, power steering belt, and water pump. Replacing the A/C compressor adjusting pulley and timing belt tensioner are extra.


1. Place car on jack stands. Insert a wood block between oil pan and jack, to support the engine.

2. Remove left front wheel and splash shield (10 mm). Drain coolant, if replacing water pump.

3. Remove both power steering pump bolts (12 mm, 17 lb.-ft.) and winged belt tension adjusting bolt.

4. Remove 4 bolts going to the exhaust manifold cover (12 mm). Apply anti-seize compound to threads, prior to installation.

5. Remove 4 bolts going to the power steering bracket (14 mm, 33 lb.-ft.); remove bracket.

6. Loosen alternator adjusting bolt (12 mm) and pivot nut. Remove alternator belt.

7. Remove both engine support nuts (17 mm, 54 lb.-ft.). Remove engine mount bolt (17 mm) and lift the engine mount out.

8. Remove A/C compressor adjusting pulley (33 lb.-ft.), bracket (17 lb.-ft.), and belt. This is the ideal time to replace the pulley. Either buy a new pulley or press out the old bearing (NTN 6203 LU) and press in a new one. Better yet, use the temperature differential method for mounting the new bearing, where you place it in the freezer overnight and drop it into the pulley that has been heated with a hair dryer.

9. Remove cylinder head cover (10 mm, 7 lb.-ft.).

10. Remove upper timing belt cover (10 mm, 7 lb.-ft.).

11. Align timing marks by rotating crankshaft bolt counterclockwise (CCW). Set the crankshaft so that the No. 1 piston is at top dead center (TDC) on the compression stroke. Align TDC marks on camshaft pulley with cylinder head upper surface, for the D15B7 and D15B8 engines. Align the TDC mark on the camshaft pulley with pointer on the back cover, for the D16Z6 engine. Align the TDC marks on the camshaft pulley with pointers (triangle marks) on the back cover, for the D15Z1 engine. The "UP" Mark on the camshaft pulley must be at 12 o'clock. Align the groove on teeth side of the timing belt drive pulley to the pointer on the oil pump, for all of these engines.

TRICK: It's safest to place a mark (e.g. Wite-Out, white Sharpie, or white paint) on each pulley and corresponding point on the side of the old timing belt, before removing. Then, remove old belt, transfer marks exactly to new belt, and reinstall with confidence.

12. Remove right-hand pulley bolt (17 mm), using a Honda Crankshaft Pulley Holding Tool (e.g. SIR-H060 or SIR-H070), 3/4-inch drive 40" breaker bar, 3/4"x1/2" adapter, 1/2-inch drive 16" extension, and jack stand, by rotating CCW. You can use a powerful 3/4-inch drive air impact wrench, if you have a first class compressor to properly drive it. Beefy 1/2-inch drive impact wrenches, with 625 lb.-ft. of torque in reverse, don't faze it. Without a quality crankshaft pulley holding tool, you will be hard pressed to remove the pulley bolt and the game will be over. Remove crankshaft pulley and key.

13. Remove lower timing belt cover (10 mm) and outer belt guide.

14. Remove Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor, if any.

15. Remove timing belt tensioner (14 mm) and spring--examine for wear. It's safest to replace it. Otherwise, just loosen the timing belt tensioner adjusting bolt 180 degrees.

16. Remove timing belt.

17. Remove and replace water pump (10 mm, 9 lb.-ft.).

18. Loosely attach belt tensioner and spring. Place hole in tensioner's back plate over peg in block, reattach spring around peg on the left, and loosely tighten 14 mm bolt. Tensioner must fit on peg to pivot properly.

19. Install new timing belt in this sequence: timing belt drive pulley, tensioner pulley, and water pump. Then, draw up on front side of timing belt and fit over camshaft pulley. The sequence matters.

20. Replace CKP Sensor, if any.

21. Replace outer belt guide (concave surface facing out) and lower timing belt cover (7 lb.-ft.).

22. Replace crankshaft pulley and key—apply oil to bolt threads, but not to the surface that contacts the washer. Hold pulley with the crankshaft pulley holding tool and torque pulley bolt 134 lb.-ft.

23. Properly tension the timing belt by slowly rotating the crankshaft pulley bolt CCW 3-teeth on the camshaft pulley, using a breaker bar. Engine must be cold and at TDC on the compression stroke (maximum resistance for creating tension). There's a tension side (camshaft pulley to timing belt drive pulley) and a slack side (water pump to camshaft pulley) to the timing belt. The tension side should be "banjo" tight. TRICK: Some mechanics press their left hand down on top of the camshaft, to create additional resistance and tension on the timing belt, while they slowly rotate the crankshaft pulley bolt CCW 3-teeth on the camshaft pulley. This increases the natural resistance at TDC on the compression stroke and results in a tighter timing belt.

24. Torque timing belt tensioner adjusting bolt (14 mm, 33 lb.-ft.).

25. Re-torque pulley bolt (17 mm, 134 lb.-ft.).

26. Replace belt tensioner rubber plug in lower cover.

27. Adjust valves.

28. Replace upper timing belt cover and cylinder head cover.

29. Button everything up.


Note: Torque specifications can vary engine-to-engine. Those given are for Civic D15B7, D15B8, D16Z6, and D15Z1 engines. It's a good idea to replace the camshaft seals on Accords, since they tend to be driven harder than Civics.

[TxGreaseMonkey]

If the timing belt slipped, the pistons may have collided with the valves. It's an interference engine! See if the work was under warranty--if so, consider filing a claim. I think the mechanic failed to torque the tensioner pulley bolt to spec. The forces of destruction are not as great as on a helicopter, however, they are still there.

[helicopterPilot]

Alrighty!

So I looked up whoever repaired the timing belt, their out of business. Figures...

Anyway, I got the new timing belt, auto tension pulley and the lower cover. The rubber gasket was damaged.

Now... I aligned both the camshaft pulley and crank shaft pulley to their markers. The problem is I can't get a straight answer on if that automatically sets piston 1 at tdc. Or could it be steeting another piston to tdc... if that makes any sense .

If not, how do I find piston 1?

Im just going to start putting everything back together. Ill check the forum again before I start the car, in case you tell me I'm about to blow it up, haha.

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Just realize the engine may already have substantial internal damage, if the timing belt slipped or came off. Check this out first.

Piston #1 is closest to the power steering pump. As you look at the engine from the front, it's on the far right.

Look on the front of the engine block and tell me what engine you have. If it's one I mentioned in my write-up above, just follow my instructions. They are guaranteed to work.. . By experience. Using the proper alignment marks for your engine will ensure everything is at TDC for Piston #1.

I love replacing Honda timing belts--I'd like to do one each quarter. Normally, the key to replacing a timing belt is properly tensioning it. Make sure you understand how to do it.

[helicopterPilot]

Argg! Its -30, lol.

I just finished installing the timing belt and I put everything back together. Nothing, same problem. She just cranks.

I installed the tensioner by the book. Lined up the marks dead on. Wrapped the belt around loosened tensioner. Attached spring, I gave it 2 full manual turns and evrything was tight and aligned, tighten tensioner bolt, pulled coter pin. Im sure I put everything back together, like I said, I bag and tag all the bolts so that if I finish a project with an extra bag,, ooops :P


Conspiracy :

OK , so everything is top dead center. Now in the book, they keep showing a picture of line up marks on the crankshaft pulley, the outer portion (connected to alternator), Ive never seen those. I looked forever too. Its also got a threaded/notched bolt hole... where the crank bolt goes. I just lined up the 2 notches. Makes sense ? Im not sure why it would even matter, it just drives the alt and a/c right?

I'm scared I may of went too fast with my first diagnostics/fuse/spark etc.. May of missed something, but I can't start going back on things.

PMR-HA-6 2/8 USA 3/0 01 that's all I saw on the block

What do you think is next?

All and all Im still content, If that wasn't the issue, it was going to be one soon. I really do appreciate your help.

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Did you align the crankshaft timing mark (groove), not keyway in the crankshaft, with the pointer on the oil pump? You need to remove the rear timing belt guide to see it. It doesn't sound like you did it that way, to me.

The engine no. is just to the left of the exhaust heat shield, as you face the engine. Use an LED flashlight and a rag to locate it.

Next steps:

. Verify that the Check Engine Light comes on a goes off after 2 seconds, when the ignition switch is turned to ON (Position II). If the CEL still stays on, and you can't clear it with a scan tool or code reader, try disconnecting the negative. Battery cable for 15 seconds.

. Remove the spark plugs and check the compression of each cylinder with a gauge.

. Replace the Crankshaft Position Sensor.

Are you in Canada or Alaska?

[helicopterPilot]

It feels like I live in Alaska!! Haha, I live in Ottawa . Don't even tell me how hot it is down there , :P

So when I did the crank pulley alignment , I did use the little grove, (Its just an engraved line on the outer metal)and aligned it with the mark on the oil pan (the arrow) . I was just asking about the keyway notch.

So I'm ahead of you :D and already did my compression test, and tested all the wires at the same time. Results... 0 for compression ! Haha wires were fine . I was a little worried my pistons weren't moving so I placed a long tie strap in the cylinder hole to see if the piston were moving and they are.

This is now officially a puzzle

Like I said, all I did was align TDC on both crank and cam. Is it possible that that was a total 180 of TDC on piston #1, and that the valves open as the piston goes up?

Crankshaft sensor is brand new

D17A1
1553837

Don't give up on me!!
Thanks