[Athos]

Hi Athos,

That's what I am wanting to say.

Tut

Ok, but the question is how does religion affect society in America. I think religion has a huge effect on society - America and elsewhere - even in secular societies.

I don't necessarily mean church attendance, but rather how eons of religious thought has contributed to how societies come to view themselves and their neighbors (individual and national).

[TUT317]

Ok, but the question is how does religion affect society in America. I think religion has a huge effect on society - America and elsewhere - even in secular societies.

Hi Athos,


In the context of our societies I think most people would say we are a Christian society and follow a Christian ethic. I also think the effect of this is a society that regards political, social, religious and legal institutions as reflecting these Christian values.

This is both true and not true at the same time. Sounds a bit contradictory but I will explain.

For the sake of this argument I am only considering modern society. I am also going to divide ethics into two camps. Naturalism and non-naturalism. This just means we can divide ethics into, (a) Ethics imposed from an outside agency. The best example of this is God's commands and his directives to us.

(b) Ethics being imposed through human experience. The hedonistic approach is a good example of this. Such a theory is derived from human nature and experience.Now we have two competing ethical theories in society coming from different directions. Which theory or theories do we use today?

There are certain things that are wrong and the majority of people would agree that stealing is wrong and murder is wrong. These laws are reflected in God's commandments to us. They are also reflected in secular laws. But, we live in a complex society and sometimes it becomes impossible to use divine commands to determine the moral worth of certain issues.

For example, in Australia the government is going to impose a carbon tax. This makes a majority of Australians very unhappy. They believe such a tax will result in job losses and large increases in prices for just about everything. Low wage earners are particularly worried.

The majority of people see this tax as being politically, socially and economically bad for Australia. There is also an argument that says the tax is morally corrupt. The reason being is that this tax is creating fear and anxiety in a large number of people.

If we regard the tax as a moral issue then no amount of ethics from an outside agency is going to settle the issue. In other words, there is nothing in religious texts that can help us here. What is required to solve the problem is to look at human nature and experience. This is where hedonism comes in.

We can argue that the tax is morally wrong because it is not creating happiness for the majority of the population. An action is right if it creates the greatest happiness of the greatest number. An action is wrong is it produces the opposite. And clearly this tax is creating the opposite of happiness for a majority.

To answer the original question I would say that in our modern society the Christian ethic is not as influential as some people think when it comes to non-religious institutions. Having said that I still think it has an important role to play in society as a whole. Some people may disagree with that.

Tut

[paraclete]

We can argue that the tax is morally wrong because it is not creating happiness for the majority of the population. An action is right if it creates the greatest happiness of the greatest number. An action is wrong is it produces the opposite. And clearly this tax is creating the opposite of happiness for a majority.

To answer the original question I would say that in our modern society the Christian ethic is not as influential as some people think when it comes to non-religious institutions. Having said that I still think it has an important role to play in society as a whole. Some people may disagree with that.

Tut

Tut

I think it a misnomer to describe our society as a Christian society. It has Christian roots but in recent times many decisions have been taken that have moved our society far from Christian values.

Your discussion of the carbon tax from a moral perspective is interesting but from a Christian perspective irrelevant. From a Christian perspective governments are appointed by God and tax is part of government activity. Whether the citizens have the correct perspective can only be judged in time through outcomes. However one more christian perspective God tells us to fear not. Hardly the perspective of the population outlined by yourself.

Australia is a secular society. It makes no laws regarding the conduct of religion but certain laws impinge on religious activities. In fact in day to day life for most Australians religion has no bearing on outcomes.

[TUT317]

Tut

I think it a misnomer to describe our society as a Christian society. It has Christian roots but in recent times many decisions have been taken that have moved our society far from Christian values.

Your discussion of the carbon tax from a moral perspective is interesting but from a Christian perspective irrelevant. From a Christian perspective governments are appointed by God and tax is part of government activity. Whether the citizens have the correct perspective can only be judged in time through outcomes. However one more christian perspective God tells us to fear not. Hardly the perspective of the population outlined by yourself.

Australia is a secular society. It makes no laws regarding the conduct of religion but certain laws impinge on religious activities. In fact in day to day life for most Australians religion has no bearing on outcomes.

Hi clete,


I highlighted certain elements of the argument to show the issues.

But, yes were very much secular.


Tut

[450donn]

All one has to do is look at the news lately and see exactly how a lack of morals has effected this country. How many young children have gone missing in the past two months? How many killings for various reasons? It all comes back to a lack of moral standards as set forth in the Bible and Christian teaching.

[TUT317]

All one has to do is look at the news lately and see exactly how a lack of morals has effected this country. How many young children have gone missing in the past two months? How many killings for various reasons? It all comes back to a lack of moral standards as set forth in the Bible and Christian teaching.

Hi Don,

Yes, you have highlighted another important distinction. If anyone is interested we can have a little look at it.

When you say, "All one has to do is look at the news lately and see exactly how a lack of morals has effected this country" you are saying there is a lack of virtue ethics in this country at the moment. I wouldn't disagree with that.

There is a distinction between modern and classical ethical theories in this regard. Virtue ethics highlights the importance of a person following a certain set of rules. The Ten Commandments is an obvious example. A person is virtuous if they follow certain commands. For example, a person who does not steal is virtuous in respect to the moral law and this is regardless of the CONSEQUENCES of them following that law.

With the context of modern society is not difficult to come up with some type of scenario whereby following that particular rule may have an adverse consequence. This is why modern ethical theories tend to focus on the consequences of our actions.

My examples in previous posts (hedonism leading into utilitarianism) highlights the importance of consequences. In other words, what are the wider implications of my actions for other people and society? On this basis we don't actually talk about actions being,'good or bad' in the classical sense; we talk about actions being 'right or wrong' depending on the outcome


Tut.

[450donn]

Well, what I was trying to allude to is the total lack of morals in society today. If our society were still following the Christian beliefs and the teachings of Jesus Christ things like rape murder, robbery would be practically non existent. Simply because those things do not follow good Christian teachings. No matter what religious organization you belong to there is a set of moral standards. This country because of liberal thinking In my opinion has run away from those standards in an attempt to "find it self". This can be traced back again In my opinion to the "me" generation and the free thinking society it created. Free love, free drugs, let the government support mentality has gotten us into big trouble.

[TUT317]

Well, what I was trying to allude to is the total lack of morals in society today.

Hi Don,

I think you are saying that there is a lack of a particular type of ethic. There are many different types of ethical theories.

If our society were still following the Christian beliefs and the teachings of Jesus Christ things like rape murder, robbery would be practically non existent. Simply because those things do not follow good Christian teachings.

Could be less, but there will always be plenty of people who are prepared to go against any sort of moral commandments.

No matter what religious organization you belong to there is a set of moral standards. This country because of liberal thinking IMHO has run away from those standards in an attempt to "find it self". This can be traced back again IMHO to the "me" generation and the free thinking society it created. Free love, free drugs, let the government support mentality has gotten us into big trouble.

Probably true but we run a big risk when we start to think that politicians should be enforcing a particular moral code on the population.

Tut

[Wondergirl]

If our society were still following the Christian beliefs and the teachings of Jesus Christ

Yup, the current Republican mentality is that we ignore Jesus' teachings of sharing with each other and caring for the poor and ministering to the least among us.

[paraclete]

Well, what I was trying to allude to is the total lack of morals in society today. If our society were still following the Christian beliefs and the teachings of Jesus Christ things like rape murder, robbery would be practically non existent. Simply because those things do not follow good Christian teachings. No matter what religious organization you belong to there is a set of moral standards. This country because of liberal thinking IMHO has run away from those standards in an attempt to "find it self". This can be traced back again IMHO to the "me" generation and the free thinking society it created. Free love, free drugs, let the government support mentality has gotten us into big trouble.

I agree with you Don, if our society were truly a Christian society it would be transformed and there would be a lower incidence of crime, however there is always a non-believing element, some of whom operate solely on self gratification. You cannot blame a generation for the ills of society, where did those people get those ideas from?