[paraclete]

You don't ever read any Bible historical fiction? The Robe? books by Joseph Girzone? The Left Behind series?

I read the odd one once it was weird and far off, Look I used to run a christian book store not so long ago, not a lot of interest in it. I've seen some of them made into movies, great cimema but noting to base a spiritual experience on. Next thing you will be telling me is Mel Gibson is the messiah

[jenniepepsi]

Wow watch it and be respectful this is a polite conversation not a place to be mean and sarcastic

[Wondergirl]

Next thing you will be telling me is Mel Gibson is the messiah

Actually, no I won't. He was born too late and missed the boat on that one.

So what do you suggest for Jennie in addition to reading the Bible? I know one has to use supplementary materials in order to understand parts of it.

[Wondergirl]

wow watch it and be respectful this is a polite conversation not a place to be mean and sarcastic

I've known 'clete for years and know he loves me deep down inside.

[firmbeliever]

but both these religions believe things that i do not. (do you see how frustrating this is for me lol. not ONE religion fits me perfectly. Maybe i should make a new one! )

Jennie,

I noticed you mentioned both religions believe in things you do not.

Being a Muslim I am curious to know what are those points regarding Islam that you do not believe in?

[paraclete]

I have looked back over this thread, hard to keep a conversation going over time and what I would recommend to Jenni is what I would recommend to anyone who doesn't have that close relationship, read the Bible preferably New Testament, pray and ask God to reveal Jesus to you.

From my perspective Christianity is the truth and Islam is at best a distraction.

[classyT]

Jennie,

In another thread I gave you more than just John 1:1 for proof that Jesus is God. But you are in error because you are defining what the WORD actually means. The Bible is a self defining book. The Word was in the beginning, and it says the Word was with God and the Word WAS God. I don't know how much more plain it can be. He was WITH him and he WAS God. AND if that isn't enough skip on down to verse 14 of the same chapter. It is clear as crystal. It says the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us. HELLO?? You wanted God to just say it... well there you go. So the Bible does point blank says Jesus is God. Not just there but other places. Here is the thing Jennie, you seem to be on a quest for truth it is just that you want to define truth the way you want to. I don't mean disrespect. If you just take God at his word, this won't be an issue. But trying to decide what perfect is in your mind doesn't jive with what God says. Jesus became a man. He had physical needs. What in the world is imperfect about that? On the contrary he was 100 percent God he didn't sin EVEN with all physical demands of being 100 percent human. He didn't get cranky when he was tired, he didn't steal when he was hungry, he didn't get drunk and he didn't lie when he was under stress. He didn't lust after women, he was a perfect human because he is God.

AND... in the gospels reading about the Lord Jesus life, you have to understand that each writer (under the inspriation of the Holy Spirit) gives a different view point of him. In other words, when you read the gospel of John... Jesus is represented as God or the son of God. The book of Mathew, he is the KING or the Jewish messiah, Luke is written in the view point he is the Son of Man. Everything written about him must be put into context.

The problem with Christianity today is truth it is all watered down, mixed up and taken out of context. No wonder you are confused. Most Christians, churches even Pastors are. Sorry, I calls them like I sees them. :D This is the reason the Apostle Paul wrote directly to the body of believers to rightly divide the Word of truth. You have to divide the things written.. who they are written to, the context. Dividing isn't the same as eliminating.

The bible is THE most fasinating book ever written. There are so many hidden truths and wonders I can't even begin to know. But one thing is for certain, if you don't believe that it is completely without error and totally inspired of God and utterly the truth, I doubt you will ever really understand who the Lord Jesus really is, and what he accomplished for us. But I can tell you this for sure He is altogether LOVELY and certainly worth knowing. I hope you find the TRUTH. I really do. :)

[Wondergirl]

AND... in the gospels reading about the Lord Jesus life, you have to understand that each writer (under the inspriation of the Holy Spirit) gives a different view point of him.

Also, remember each writer had his own profession and special interests. Luke, for instance, was a doctor, so his Gospel account included information and details from a practical and human perspective. And his Christmas story in the second chapter of his Gospel is the most famous one, the most quoted one for that very reason.

This is the reason the Apostle Paul wrote directly to the body of believers to rightly divide the Word of truth.

I still don't quite get "rightly divide." To me, that's a negative connotation. There has to be a better way to say that. I've been hanging out with church people since before I was born, and had never heard that phrase until you used it.

[jenniepepsi]

Wow I missed a lot! I'm sorry!


WG, I'm glad you and para aren't fighting. It looked like it and I was worried :)

FirmBeliever, I have wanted to meet you for a long time! I've seen some of your posts and answers on the Islam board here at AMHD but never got to meet you yet.

Mostly, it's that I have never believed God to be so unforgiving as many Muslims believe. I don't think he would hate us and turn his backs on us if we don't preform Salah. I am not sure about all the rules, restrictions, and regulations. It all confuses me and makes me wonder if God truly asked us of these things, or if it was an implication of man, that slowly turned from culture, to belief, to tradition, and then LAW.
I hope that makes sense. Its so hard to explain. It just doesn't seem that Muslims have the VERY VERY CLOSE relationship with God that I seek. It seems so institutionalized and regulated. Its not personal at all. At least as far as I can see.

[Wondergirl]

WG, im glad you and para arent fighting. it looked like it and i was worried :)

Naw, not Paraclete and me. We're old friends from another Q&A site. If he doesn't agree with me, he'll tell me so, and vice versa. I see through his Australian gruffness.

[firmbeliever]

wow i missed a lot! im sorry!!

FirmBeliever, I have wanted to meet you for a long time! ive seen some of your posts and answers on the Islam board here at AMHD but never got to meet you yet.

Mostly, its that i have never believed God to be so unforgiving as many Muslims believe. I dont think he would hate us and turn his backs on us if we don't preform Salah. I am not sure about all the rules, restrictions, and regulations. it all confuses me and makes me wonder if God truly asked us of these things, or if it was an implication of man, that slowly turned from culture, to belief, to tradition, and then LAW.
I hope that makes sense. its so hard to explain. it just doesn't seem that Muslims have the VERY VERY CLOSE relationship with God that i seek. it seems so institutionalized and regulated. its not personal at all. at least as far as i can see.

We have met :D!

Islam has rules and regulations which govern the everyday life of all Muslims. Salah being the topmost, as this is when we are closest to our Creator,especially in the position of sujood,prostration.

Regarding the rules and regulations; that is what Islam is about, submission to Allah.

---------

From Muttaqun OnLine - Shahada: Confession of a Muslim. You can read the whole article via this link.

La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Allah
(None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah)

To be a muslim is to pledge the above covenant with Allah, the Creator of the heavens and earth, the Ruler of all that exists, the Lord of Majesty and Highness, stating La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad -ur-Rasool-Allah, but first one must understand what this really means.

Believing "La ilaha il Allah" (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)

Point 1: Tauhid-ar-Rububiyya

A confession with your heart that the Creator (of everything) is Allah, it is that you have to say: "I testify that the Creator of all the universe, including the stars, the planets, the sun, the moon, the heavens, the earth with all its known and unknown forms of life, is Allah. He is the Organizer and Planner of all its affairs. It is He Who gives life and death, and He (i.e. Allah Alone) is the Sustainer, and the Giver of Security, etc." And this is called your confession for the "Oneness of the Lordship of Allah," Tauhid-ar-Rububiyya.

Point 2: Tauhid-al-Uluhiyya
A confession with your heart that you have to say: "I testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone." The word "Worship" (i.e. Ibadah) carries a great number of meanings in the Arabic language: It conveys that all kinds of worship are meant for Allah (and none else, whether it be an angel, Messenger, Prophet Jesus - son of Mary, Ezra, Muhammad, saint, idol, the sun, the moon and all other kinds of false deities). So pray to none but Allah, invoke none but Allah, ask for help from none (unseen) but Allah, swear by none but Allah, offer an animal as sacrifice to none but Allah, …etc. and that means, -- all that Allah and Allah’s Messenger, saaws, order you to do (in Qur’an and in As-Sunna [legal ways of Prophet Muhammad ]) you must do, and all that Allah, s.w.t, Allah’s Messenger forbid you, you must not do. And this is called (your confession for the) "Oneness of the worship of Allah", Tauhid-al-Uluhiyya. And that you (mankind) worship none but Allah.

Those whom they invoke besides Allâh have not created anything, but are themselves created. [The Noble Qur'an 16:20]

Point 3: Tauhid-al-Asma was-Sifat

A confession with your heart that you have to say: "O Allah! I testify that all the best of names and the most perfect qualities with which You have named or qualified Yourself in Your Book (i.e. the Qur’an) or as Your Prophet Muhammad (saaws) has named or qualified You, with his statement, I confirm that all those (names and qualifications) are for You without changing their meanings or neglecting them completely or giving resemblance to others." As Allah, swt, said:

"There is nothing like unto Him and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer." (v.42:11)

This Ayat (verse) confirms the quality of hearing and the quality of sight for Allah, subhana watala without resemblance to others.
-----------

I hope you find the peace you are searching for, Jennie.




.

[cdad]

I have to ask this as its something I do not understand and since we are discussing rules of the muslim faith. How is it that so many lives are taken in the name of Allah and why is it that it appears (to me) that women are not a more prominent figure in the muslim lifestyle?

To me in celebrating Allah (or God) then it seems you would want to celebrate life and all its parts to honor Allah.

Can you help me make sense and understand this thinking?

[DoulaLC]

Also, i believe that I may be way off, or you may be way off, or EVERYONE may be way off and NO ONE has the right answer yet. I believe we may never know for SURE until we stand before Him and can ask him directly lol.

And the not knowing is where faith comes in... :) I believe you will come to understand in a way that makes sense to you... in a way that you were meant to.

I often bring up that people usually believe what they believe, if even just the basics, because of where they happened to be born and the family that they were raised in. Certainly some people alter their beliefs for various reasons, but most couldn't be swayed just as they could not sway others who believe differently.

Different journeys... alternate paths... various tour guides... same destination.

[paraclete]

Jenni without getting into you said, he said, if you want a close relationship with God then you need the infilling of the Holy Spirit, this comes through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and you won't find this teaching in Islam. Islam is religion, Christianity is relationship and you have to get past the religious forms to see this.

God is love, he is not distant or unapproachable.


You also need to know that when I make remarks I am sometimes being flippant, sometimes serious but rarely am I attempting to be nasty. I believe that the Bible is true and the Word of God. In order to benefit from what it says we have to believe that any other writings that do not line up with it are in error, because God doesn't tell us one thing then tell us something different. Islam is a work of man, so please be careful and don't be misled

[jenniepepsi]

Calif, even as an outside woman looking into Islam and learning about it, I never once felt that woman were less than men. Just different. At least that's the way I saw it.

Doula that was beautifully said. Thank you *hugs*

Para, I do see what you mean. But the only 'christians' I have seen lately, are just a standardized institution, that have no real connection to god. Its just another service. Another faith. Another sermon. Nothing more.

That is part of my problem I think. I have yet to find a church (or temple or mosque, which ever it may be!) that I feel is FAMILY. The only church I have found that came close to the right loving, family 'feel' is the mormon church. And I honestly just can't believe some of the mormon beliefs. (thats for another time, but I refufse to accept some of their beliefs)

Maybe I should cut my losses and become messianic jew :P lol

[Wondergirl]

If you want to be a part of terrific church suppers and picnics (with lots of great recipes), become a Missouri-Synod Lutheran.

[jenniepepsi]

Is there more than one type of Lutheran? I've been to a few Lutheran churches and they were all rich stuck up people.

[paraclete]

Calif, even as an outside woman looking into Islam and learning about it, i never once felt that woman were less than men. just different. at least thats the way i saw it.

Doula that was beautifully said. Thank you *hugs*

Para, i do see what you mean. but the only 'christians' i have seen lately, are just a standardized institution, that have no real connection to god. its just another service. another faith. another sermon. nothing more.

that is part of my problem i think. i have yet to find a church (or temple or mosque, which ever it may be!) that i feel is FAMILY. the only church i have found that came close to the right loving, family 'feel' is the mormon church. and i honestly just can't believe some of the mormon beliefs. (thats for another time, but i refufse to accept some of thier beliefs)

maybe i should cut my losses and become messianic jew :P lol

Well that one may be an option but you need to move outside of traditional Christianity. I'm not saying that there aren't people with my revelation there (I have found them in many denominations) but they are harder to find and in some places closely watched. See if you can find a pentecostal church that feels right for you and they will teach you. Look I was raised a Catholic, wandered in my youth but after many years I came back into the Church by a different door and the difference is huge. I have many brothers and sisters in many denominations and they are all family but it all happened after I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Please stay away from Mormons and JW, they will just confuse you and the same with Muslims. Read the Word and seek God for revelation. Remember darkness and light have no relationship

[Wondergirl]

Wow! Were those Lutherans in your state where you live?

There are three major Lutheran branches and a bunch of small ones. The biggies are ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). Those might be the rich ones you mentioned. They are also liberal in doctrine. Then there's the Missouri-Synod, many of whose grandparents came from Germany and were mostly farmers and small business owners. They're doctrinally conservative. Then there's the Wisconsin Synod, more farmers and tradesmen descendants. They're VERY conservative.

Ask me more questions.

[jenniepepsi]

Lol yes WG they were the ELCA ones.
I would like a very very conservative church. But the problem there, is I have not led a very conservative life until recently (I got pregnant at 18, was unmarried, never married my child's father, almost divorced my husband, I'm a smoker, I cuss lol. Several things)

So maybe Missouri-Synod would be a good church to look into?

I went to my aunt and uncles church once. They are Orthodox Presbyterian. While I see nothing wrong with that, they are good Christians with good hearts, they also are strong believers in Original Sin, (born sinners) and predestination (Calvinism) and that's another thing that is a huge deal breaker for me that I just can't wrap my head around and believe in those 2 things.

Gosh this is so hard. Maybe I should take a break from all the 'church' worries, and just focus on God directly for a while. I'm sure he won't mind :P