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    Alty's Avatar
    Alty Posts: 28,317, Reputation: 5972
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    #1

    Aug 7, 2011, 04:00 PM
    Dog breed debate. Purebred or Designer breed?
    Since this debate started in another thread, I thought I'd start a new thread to allow members to continue discussing this topic, without continuing to hijack another thread. :)

    The debate on what makes a dog purebred has been going on for a long time. I'm not the best to explain this, but I'll give it a go, and hopefully those that can explain it better will come along to share their knowledge.

    When we talk about purebred dogs we're talking about breeds that have been around for a very long time. Poodles, Labradors, Golden retrievers, Beagles, Basset Hounds, Chinese Cresteds, German Shepherds, etc. etc. etc. These breeds are known breeds, they have breed standards, their temperament, size, common health defects, life expectancy, etc. etc. is well known. These breeds have been tested for many years, decades and more, and are considered legitimate breeds.

    When those of us that are dog advocates see a backyard breeder (and make no mistake about it, these people aren't breeders), selling designer dogs like labradoodles, Shischons, Cavoodles, Buggs, etc. etc. we become a bit upset. It's a total slap in the face to breeders that actually care about the dogs that are out there, care about the quality of dogs being bred, care about the shelters being full to overflowing capacity. The fact that all those designer "breeds", when written, came up red (meaning they're not in the spell check dictionary), and none of the legit breeds did, says it all.

    You can make the argument that all dogs are mixed with other breeds. Yes, they are. But the difference between a designer dog and an actual breed, is that the purebred dogs have been tried and tested, their health and pedigree is well known. They have breed standards. A breeder can tell you what you should be getting (there's always room for error, but not a lot with a purebred dog).

    With a designer dog you don't know what you're getting. Will the labradoodle be small like the mini poodle father, or huge like the labrador mother? Will it have the health defects of a poodle, a labrador, both, or worse, because of the mix will it develop it's own health issues? What will you get? No two puppies will be the same, just like any other dog that's mixed. With a purebred, that won't happen.

    I for one do not advocate people that sell designer dogs. They aren't breeders. Instead of promoting a breed that's already been established, they're muddying up the blood lines, creating what basically ends up being the Frankenstein of the dog world. We all know how Frankenstein ended. It wasn't good. ;)

    Please feel free to write what you feel about designer breeds, and why. Let's keep the debate friendly, even if we don't agree. Instead of getting upset, explain your position, and back it up with facts, as I've attempted to do in my post.

    I look forward to the debate. :)
    Aurora_Bell's Avatar
    Aurora_Bell Posts: 4,193, Reputation: 822
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    #2

    Aug 7, 2011, 04:58 PM

    I know my dogs breeds aren't technically a "purebred", they have been recognized in certain kennel clubs. The CKC does recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier, and Am Staff is another type of the breed. It doesn't really matter to me. A dog is a dog. My dogs as most of you all know are mixes. They are wonderful house dogs and I love them. Would I ever breed them? Never! There are way too many bullies and staffies out there in need for good homes. I would never support a BYB or any one who bred designer breeds. A cute name for a big buck. Some times, actual "purebreds" as defined by the CKC, AKC, and UKC, from reputable breeders, with papers, are less expensive then the designer breeds, who obviously don't have papers because Malty-coka-shoo's are not registered breeds.

    I admire people who have the patience and desire to breed and show, for the actual love of the blood line and breed. I've always said show dogs are probably the best looked after dogs out there. Constant grooming and training with most of the breeds. And training a dog to those expectations is hard work, it takes time!

    I've read the debate, a good friend of mine and I are not such good friends any more because she bought a pet store dog, and I feel that she doesn't want to know or care about how this dog came into the world, and how her parents are treated. She just looks right at me and says "it's not my dog, I rescued mine". No, it doesn't cost that much for one thing to rescue, and rescue's would never adopt out a dog which isn't spayed or neutered to prevent further abuse. She still hasn't had the dog spayed, and the dog is allowed out side, in an un-fenced yard by her self for hours at a time. Hello... It's hard to be understanding or forgive and not be judgmental when I feel so passionate about this cause.

    The whole purpose behind breeding was to be selective in blood lines, not just slapping two good looking dogs together and hoping for the best. With purebreds, there is a lot of predictability with the character of the breed. I run into a lot of purebred owners who look at my mutts with a snobbish attitude, they feel their dogs are better. But better in what way? In the way if you want a specific breed for a specific trait, retrieving, hunting, pulling, then yes, they are better, and some mixes can do the job just as well. But better just because they have pure lines? No. Dogs are dogs. I would never hate a dog just because it was from a BYB or a pet store. I hate the people behind or support them.
    cdad's Avatar
    cdad Posts: 12,700, Reputation: 1438
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    #3

    Aug 7, 2011, 05:29 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell View Post
    No, it doesn't cost that much for one thing to rescue, and rescue's would never adopt out a dog which isn't spayed or neutered to prevent further abuse.
    Im not sure about what goes on in your area. But I can tell you that the statement above isn't exactly true. If you rescue a dog from a animal shelter then yes they will fix the dog and it should have all current shots. But there are many private rescue services out there (some breeed specific) that are not going to spay or nueter the animal. They have enough on the line just trying to feed and return to health the dogs they have rescued.

    And as far as designer breeds Im not in favor of it. It just seems too prissy to me. Look at what happened in Japan. They thought they were buying poodles (the rage at the time) and instead they had received sheep. Lol
    J_9's Avatar
    J_9 Posts: 40,298, Reputation: 5646
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    #4

    Aug 7, 2011, 05:38 PM

    Where I am from the dog is not spayed OR neutered prior to adoption. The shelters give you a "certificate" to go to the vet of their choice for a discounted spay/neuter.
    cdad's Avatar
    cdad Posts: 12,700, Reputation: 1438
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    #5

    Aug 7, 2011, 05:45 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by J_9 View Post
    Where I am from the dog is not spayed OR neutered prior to adoption. The shelters give you a "certificate" to go to the vet of their choice for a discounted spay/neuter.
    Do they have mobil clinics by you ? The visit neighborhoods and offer low cost spay/nueter services and have also offered free services to seniors.
    J_9's Avatar
    J_9 Posts: 40,298, Reputation: 5646
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    #6

    Aug 7, 2011, 05:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by califdadof3 View Post
    Do they have mobil clinics by you ? The visit neighborhoods and offer low cost spay/nueter services and have also offered free services to seniors.
    Not that I am aware of.
    Aurora_Bell's Avatar
    Aurora_Bell Posts: 4,193, Reputation: 822
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    #7

    Aug 7, 2011, 06:10 PM

    I've never heard of any licensed or registered shelter adopt out un-altered animals unless they were too young (or the animal is not healthy enough to undergo the surgery) at the time, in which case they give the certificates. But that may just be another difference between Canadian and American shelters.

    I volunteer with a privately owned rescue, which is breed specific, and the SPCA; both get funding for spays and neuters. The goal behind shelters is to prevent abuse, neglect and cruelty to animals, and provide for world-wide leadership on matters that promote and improve the welfare of all animals through animal protection, care and rehabilitation and humane education.

    Sorry that was cited from the SPCA mission statement.
    Aurora_Bell's Avatar
    Aurora_Bell Posts: 4,193, Reputation: 822
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    #8

    Aug 7, 2011, 06:21 PM

    At least 30 states have passed legislation requiring sterilization of cats and dogs adopted from community shelters. Many state laws charge guardians who choose not to sterilize their animal companions a substantial financial penalty. Laws are stronger in some areas of the country than in others. In New York City, for example, even dogs and cats sold in pet stores must be spayed or neutered. Rhode Island requires guardians to spay or neuter all cats over six months of age, no matter how they are acquired, or pay a licensing fee. Advocates expect this to reduce the number of animals euthanized in the state by about 65%.

    Facts: Spay/Neuter Ordinances
    Alty's Avatar
    Alty Posts: 28,317, Reputation: 5972
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    #9

    Aug 7, 2011, 07:52 PM

    I have to add about shelters.

    In our shelter no animal is adopted out without spaying or neutering, that includes rabbits, unless the animal is too young. If the animal is too young you pay a bit more, $25 for rabbits, to adopt, and then the spay or neuter is free, done at the shelter when the animal is of age. Most puppies are spayed or neutered at 3 months at the shelter, before they're allowed to be adopted.

    A purebred dog can run into the thousands to buy. A rescue dog at our shelter, for a young puppy, altered, up to date on its shots, health checked, and with basic obedience, will be less then $300. Just to put that into perspective, to spay or neuter a dog at most vet clinics, the average cost is over $300. For a rabbit it's $300. An altered rabbit in our shelter is $50. An unaltered rabbit, which the shelter will spay or neuter when they're 6 months of age, is $75. Most pet store rabbits cost over $60, unaltered, and $60 is a hell of a deal. So, a pet store rabbits cost, to buy and alter, will be close to $400.

    Okay, back to dogs.

    I do rescue. Indy was a mix, he was from an oops litter that a friend had. He's not a backyard breeder, he did everything right. He had his male fixed, and the female, because of a very traumatic birth, being left in a garbage dump to die, could not be spayed until she was healthy enough, and mentally sound enough, to do so. No, she shouldn't have had a litter, but sadly our friend didn't realize she was pregnant until days before she had the litter. Well, the neuter on the male wasn't done right. He was able to sire a litter. That's how we got our Indy.

    Jasper is a mix as well. He's a shelter rescue. He was 4 months old when we adopted him. He was scheduled to be euthanized the next day because he and his 5 sisters were considered unadoptable. The only reason I was allowed to take him (he wouldn't go anywhere near us for weeks), was because of my rep at the shelter. We've had him for 10 years.

    Chewy is a purebred, bought from a very reputable breeder. She breeds for the love of the breed, and has been breeding since, well, birth. Her parents bred beagles, her grandparents bred beagles, her great grandparents bred beagles, and so on and so on. She does all the health checks, she makes people sign a contract when adopting her puppies, and, if I couldn't keep Chewy, I'd call her up and she'd take him back, no questions asked. Chewy cost us $250. Trust me, she pays money to breed. The health checks on the parents alone cost more then $250. She does it for the love of the breed. Sadly she's very ill and is no longer breeding beagles. Her daughter may take over, but at this point her kennel is closed. :(

    There's a difference between a mixed breed and a designer breed. Mixed breeds happen. I have no issues with people that had an oops litter, gave the puppies away, and then learned from that mistake and made sure it didn't happen again. Those that intentionally breed mixes, or so called purebreds without health checks, genetic tests, etc. etc. are backyard breeders. They're only one tiny step above puppymills IMO.

    If the breed isn't recognized, there's a reason. Legit breeds are recognized breeds because they've been tried and tested. When you get a beagle, you know you have a beagle. It will be a certain height, have a certain look, temperament, life expectancy, possible genetic issues, etc. etc. With designer breeds, because people just throw two breeds together, you don't know what you're going to get. A "Labradoodle", could take on the characteristics of a Labrador or a Poodle. You can only guess at size. You can only guess at temperament, life expectancy, and genetic issues, you can't even guess at that, because you can't possibly know what mixing those two breeds will produce. Each puppy will be different. No two litters will be the same, even with the same parents.

    How can you call it a breed when there is no breed standard and no breed standard can be established?

    Designer breeds are like all designer things. They're a fad, and once people realize that they're not getting what they paid for, that fad will end and a new fad will begin. The only problem is that these are living things. They're not handbags. So what happens to the designer dog when the owner doesn't get what they thought they were paying for? Shelter, and possible death.
    shazamataz's Avatar
    shazamataz Posts: 6,642, Reputation: 1244
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    #10

    Aug 7, 2011, 11:41 PM

    At our local shelter all dogs, cats and bunnies are desexed before adoption.

    Most dog breeds were originally bred for a purpose, there are a few that were bred purely to be companion animals, but the majority have a purpose.

    Affenpinscher - Ratters
    Afghan - Hunting, sight hound
    Airedale Terrier - All purpose, hunting on land and water
    Alaskan Malamute - Big game hunters
    Anatolian Shepherd - Guarding livestock
    Australian Cattle Dog - Herding cattle long distance.
    Australian Kelpie - Herding sheep
    Australian Silky Terrier - Household rodents

    The list goes on :D
    These dogs were originally made up of different breeds, but were refined over many generations to improve their workability.
    The Poodle is a good example, originally bred in Germany as a retrieving dog, they needed a powerful dog that was a good swimmer. A dog with a waterproof coat to handle cold temperatures, yet still be able to have freedom of movement in the water (hence their grooming).
    They were fairly stocky, powerful dogs.

    Now that is how they ended up when being bred for their intended purpose.
    When the French adopted the poodle, they did not use it for retrieving, so they started breeding the poodle for their own purpose (mostly pets) and the breed started to have less bone, and become finer and more elegant.
    These are the poodles we know today, but they are not the poodle the Germans envisioned.

    The designer dogs and bred today have no purpose other than being companion animals.
    Even the purebred toy breeds usually have a purpose (usually for rats or small game) but these new dogs have none... zilch, there is no regard for temperament as the temperament doesn't need to be a certain way for a pet.
    There is no regard for structure and conformation as there doesn't need to be any desired conformation traits for a pet.

    Anyway, I have just woken up so I should probably continue this later once my brain starts functioning...
    paleophlatus's Avatar
    paleophlatus Posts: 459, Reputation: 112
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    #11

    Aug 8, 2011, 02:41 AM
    The 'designer ' breeds of old (really Old, like Asia) were the Pekes, and Shih tsu), and others of more modern times. Probably the 'most successful' were the Asian breeds, judging by their looks, which can't stand line breeding for more than one generation without some genetic mistakes showing up, sometimes not even that far back. Those breeds happen to look like the Chinese "Foo" dogs in ancient Oriental paintings and artworks for a reason... they were the result of the patient Chinese experimenting with their dogs until they got the results they wanted. Unlike today's designers who get their results fairly quickly... $$$.

    Today's 'generic' dog is wolf-like. Like most free roaming (and thus breeding) dogs, they all begin to look basically similar. A pure bred dog breeds 'true' all the time, or nearly so. An occasional unexplained color or trait gets blamed on a 'throw-back' to the basic bloodlines, which is a deeply recessive genetic expression. This explains the difficulty that exists in getting a breed recognized by the AKC. They require, basically, proof of breeding history for many generations, plus some certified testimony and enough more that no one starts to develop a breed on their own nowadays. Sadly, my experience with UKC has been much less demanding. A few pictures and a testimony of the breeding history is enough in many situations. A little short of real proof, and probably the reason behind, as well as in favor of, the belief that the Pit Bull is a recognized breed.

    I am kind of fascinated with the 'naming convention' for these designer breeds. Take the pup in this kidnapped post... a Shihpoo, a ShihTsu and Poodle. What if it were a Poodle and ShihTsu?

    A
    redhed35's Avatar
    redhed35 Posts: 4,221, Reputation: 1910
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    #12

    Aug 8, 2011, 03:20 AM

    I saw my first labradoodle a few months ago, beautiful looking dog, I did'nt know what the breed was at the time so I took a gander over to admire the dog, I asked the owner what was the breed was she said purebred labradoodle, I laughed and said a purebred mongrel! She was very insulted and said she had paid big money for the dog and it came from a breeder! Anyway there's no talking to some people, they pay big bucks for a dog and believe it when their told it's a pedigree.

    PAWS is the big dog shelter here in ireland and most recently Dogs trust, PAWS neuter all their dogs and do a follow up on rehoming, its quite a long process actually, its not just a matter of going to the shelter and picking up a dog.

    Mixed breeds are mongrels, neither here or there, and as shaz stated you just don't know what your getting, there was a post a while ago where the op stated her 'teacup' pup was ill, I did'nt have the heart to tell her she had a very sick runt on her hands, think I passed that one on to shaz or bella?

    People like the idea of having a designer dog and there's not enough awareness especially in ireland about backyard breeders, go to any car boot sale and there's bound to be a box of pups there for sale, tiny scraps 4 or 5 weeks old with a belly full of worms and riddled with fleas, and people will buy them, as long as people are willing to pay money 'breeders' will continue to breed whatever dog and b!tch they can put together, give it a fancy name and you have a sale.

    There is a long running debate going on in our house about getting josie, brendans springer (gun dog) neutered, I think she should be neutered, brendans wants to hold off in case he wants to breed her, my reply,. 'over my dead body!', she came from a proper breeder she is registered with the irish kennel club, he has not got the first clue about breeding, neither do I, there is a huge misconception in general that a female dog NEEDS to have a litter,as far as I'm concerned thems fighting words!and I've had many a debate in the local pub with the local yokels who breed willy nilly.

    There are laws here in place to stop big backyard breeders but not for tom, richard and harry up the road, well I suppose they do the same to their wife's can't expect them to treat their animals any better.
    Aurora_Bell's Avatar
    Aurora_Bell Posts: 4,193, Reputation: 822
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    #13

    Aug 8, 2011, 05:08 AM

    Great post Red. I hope your son decides to spay his girl.

    I understand that breedes and dogs were npot selective when they first started breeding, but people didn't know that smoking killed either. SO now that we have the knowledge, we need to use it.
    redhed35's Avatar
    redhed35 Posts: 4,221, Reputation: 1910
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    #14

    Aug 8, 2011, 05:25 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell View Post
    Great post Red. I hope your son decides to spay his girl.

    I understand that breedes and dogs were npot selective when they first started breeding, but people didn't know that smoking killed either. SO now that we have the knowledge, we need to use it.
    Ah funny talk about inbreding!

    Brendan is fiancé not son:)
    Aurora_Bell's Avatar
    Aurora_Bell Posts: 4,193, Reputation: 822
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    #15

    Aug 8, 2011, 05:27 AM

    Bahah oops! Lol Sorry :o
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    shazamataz Posts: 6,642, Reputation: 1244
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    #16

    Aug 8, 2011, 07:26 AM

    lol @ Paleo, I have heard some fantastic designer names.
    Jack Russel x Shih Tzu = Jack Sh!t
    Havanese x Poodle = Hava Poo

    The Shih Tzu is a good point, there are some big problems with mouths in that breed, you have to be very careful what lines you use and back-trace any problems.

    I have to laugh at many of the people who come on saying they have a Sh!t Soo, or a Sh!t Tzu... It's pronounced Shee-Zoo.

    We are lucky here in Aus we only have one registry, and they demand a 5 gen pedigree, directly related matings are not allowed (father x daughter, brother x sister etc) and it is looking like mandatory testing is on the cards for some genetic diseases.

    There is a Labradoodle Association, they have even made up a breed standard, pity they can't stick to it.
    Aurora_Bell's Avatar
    Aurora_Bell Posts: 4,193, Reputation: 822
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    #17

    Aug 8, 2011, 07:34 AM

    I always spell it Shih Tzu? Is that wrong?

    I always liked Malty cocka poo.
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    shazamataz Posts: 6,642, Reputation: 1244
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    #18

    Aug 8, 2011, 08:49 AM

    Yep Shih Tzu, literally means lion dog in Chinese.
    When it came to breeding Shih Tzu’s in China, the Eunuchs of the imperial courts had the job. They competed amongst themselves to see who would raise the most appealing dogs. Producing the best dogs would get a eunuch high praise and gifts from the emperor.

    Shih Tzu’s were considered good luck, and they were usual participants in regal processions and followed at the heel of emperors and empresses. It is reported that the Shih Tzu guarded Buddhist temples and would bark at would-be intruders.
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    paleophlatus Posts: 459, Reputation: 112
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    #19

    Aug 8, 2011, 01:20 PM
    @Redhead35, There are many medical reasons for spaying before having a litter, some even for doing so before the first season... no chance for uterine infections (pyometra), mammary cancer potential reduced to same as in the male dog (yes, it can happen, but rarely), if spayed before first season, and NO unwanted puppies, plus, for the hunting dog, no interrupted hunting seasons because of estrous seasons, or busted hunts because the other male dogs refused to hunt birds, following other instincts instead.

    It has not been shown to 'settle the female down' to wait till after she has a season or litter, either.

    I hope this can be used for ammunition in your appropriate family 'squabbles'.

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    redhed35 Posts: 4,221, Reputation: 1910
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    #20

    Aug 8, 2011, 02:06 PM

    Duly noted paleophalus, there is also the misconception that female dogs become fat after being spayed, even when faced with examples of healthy dogs after the fact.

    I am using the gentle persistent persuasion technique, eventually I will prevail!

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