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    martinizing2's Avatar
    martinizing2 Posts: 1,868, Reputation: 819
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    #1

    Mar 13, 2011, 12:45 PM
    Appropriate Place to Discuss Opinions ,Debate or Argue
    At various times and places it seems that OP questions get lost and
    Pushed to the side as members are debating methods, means and opinions.

    This lately has been happening a lot in the Paranormal and Spiritual forums.

    I would like to see this be the place to bring it instead of in someone's thread.

    Is this appropriate ?

    If so... I'll start
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    #2

    Mar 13, 2011, 01:15 PM

    Isn't the debating or arguing helping the OP make the their own opinion? Or are you saying it's getting out of hand?:)
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    #3

    Mar 13, 2011, 01:19 PM

    Originally Posted by hauntinghelper
    Yes, it is my opinion...but I also know it for a fact You see, I'm not afraid of political correctness.


    You're not afraid of ignorant wrongness either it appears.

    You are informed of the biblical teachings on the subject it is obvious.
    Have you been out "in the field" and got your hands dirty yet?

    Like so many college graduates find out when they put the education to work... it isn't like the book said it would be,. it always works on paper and the theory is proven and tested,, but the results of the implementation do not work out in the real world all the time, or even most of the time, but occasionally it will if you make allowances for the unique conditions of every instance.

    This can be more than most people can imagine both physically and mentally.
    Rarely I will admit , but it only takes one .

    Open up your mind. God will think more of you for it.
    Following instructions is good , but does not always hold the answer.
    You have to find it on your own at times.
    And I think we were meant to do some of that.

    I wish you well.



    hauntinghelper [?]
    Junior Member



    Ignorant wrongness? Don't assume I'm wrong. Don't assume the amount of experience I have either... and quite frankly I'm tired of these attacks posted inside of somebody's question. Let's have a debate, fine with me... but let's do it in a new forum that is set aside for debating this particular subject. If you think God will think more of me for opening my mine BEYOND what is taught in the Bible, then, sir you have completely missed who God is.





    Enough backround.



    I am not assuming you are wrong.
    You are in the way you jump to conclusions ( usually demon oriented) with little information from the OP.

    I think you do this in good faith, trying to help .
    But jumping in with too soon with information like " noises , yep its a demon and only God can help" (my paraphrase not a quote)
    .. that could set someone ,who is already afraid, off on a psychotic episode ,
    Or scare them into doing rash stupid things that can harm them and those around them.

    I can see you have a strong faith in God , Jesus , and the bible which I understand .
    But not all that goes bump in the night needs the wrath of God brought down upon it.

    I did not question your experience. I asked about it.

    I don't think I missed God. I think we are expected to think beyond what teachings made it to us .

    Man wrote the bible about what he thinks God said, and meant. It isn't 100%
    ________________
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    #4

    Mar 13, 2011, 01:22 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Dahlia View Post
    Isn't the debating or arguing helping the OP make the their own opinion? or are you saying it's getting out of hand?:)
    Kind of both
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    #5

    Mar 14, 2011, 04:49 PM
    It's certainly not my intent to drive someone to the point of worrying about a demon... and I do try and hold that back so they can still think logically. Of course not everything that bumps in the night is spiritual... however, being online and not being physically in their situation... sometimes we have to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have the common sense to distinguish between the supernatural and everyday explanations.

    And you are correct, there are a lot of teachings that didn't "make it" to the common Christian... and in almost EVERY case there is a good reason it's not considered either authentic OR authoritative.
    I don't believe for one second that the Bible was written about what they THINK God said or meant. These people wrote under the inspiration (as men) of the Holy Spirit. I have found it to be absolute in it's truth. I did go through a period in my life when I had to question it and search for answers on my own beyond what it taught. It's not something I just accepted and went with my entire life. I struggled with many things in it and how it was written. But after much research I am absolutely certain of it's authority and divine source.

    Again, I'm not trying to scare the OP... but I am trying to take them seriously (in most cases) and offer advice based on the wisdom of the situation. True, not everyone is going to be physically attacked by a demon... but there is danger in these situations that goes beyond physical harm.
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    #6

    Mar 14, 2011, 06:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ;
    .however, being online and not being physically in their situation...sometimes we have to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have the common sense to distinguish between the supernatural and everyday explanations.
    I give the benefit of the doubt that they
    Experienced an exceptional event .
    I have experiences that have shown me to believe first,

    To distinguish between normal and paranormal
    Is not a common sense thing.
    At least not a common knowledge thing.

    A place to find out some simple steps to start
    With a primer of FAQ's
    Could save a lot of people needless fear.

    And make them less vulnerable to the vermin
    Who take advantage of the situation.

    And people who are experienced enough
    To realize how "life impacting" any one of the
    Incidents has the potential to be .

    And I believe caution is always called for.

    Caution Always Works for me.
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    #7

    Mar 14, 2011, 06:55 PM
    I certainly agree... caution is ALWAYS good. This is just a unique medium in that I trust, for the most part, that the right information has been given. For crying out loud I'm not going to suggest someone has a raccoon in their home when they claim things have been thrown around. I think that is being offensive to their intelligence. And I'm with you of the FAQ... infact, I'm with you every step of the way in trying to establish the credibility and detail of each person's post.

    Once it's established that something could very well be a spirit is where I deviate from the norm of the "paranormal" field. Again, I'm not always looking for physical harm... in most cases that doesn't happen... but these things are spiritually damaging. Their goal is deceit. If Satan is the 'Father of all Lies', shouldn't we expect his followers to act as such? By the very nature of a "ghost" claiming to be a passed soul flies right in the face of what the Bible teaches... the very manifestation of a spirit in this way is claiming the Bible to be a fraud. THAT is what these spirits want and that is where I'm trying to help people. The Word also tells us that Satan can appear as an angel of light... and that we should also expect his followers to appear as "good"... you see it's in their deception... all they want to do is loosen any sort of spiritual foundation one might have, whether it be through fear or deception.

    That is why I am concerned when a young person claims something is in their room... because I know it happens, it happened to me and I'm trying to help these people take that foothold away from the devil. He's sneaky and he will move in very slowly most of the time. Of course not EVERY person on here is legit... that is obvious, but I'm putting what I know to be true out there nonetheless.
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    #8

    Mar 14, 2011, 08:00 PM
    I certainly agree... caution is ALWAYS good. This is just a unique medium in that I trust, for the most part, that the right information has been given. For crying out loud I'm not going to suggest someone has a raccoon in their home when they claim things have been thrown around.
    No matter the claim, the facts and statistics (math is the only exact science) say that 97 out of 100 times it will be the raccoon , or rational answer.
    Which makes it the first and easiest thing to check while getting the OP to try and be objective and not looking for
    Anything. But finding the truth.

    Once it's established that something could very well be a spirit is where I deviate from the norm of the "paranormal" field. Again, I'm not always looking for physical harm... in most cases that doesn't happen... but these things are spiritually damaging.
    These things can damage at levels I never imagined.
    Absolute terror was only the beginning.
    It went downhill from there.

    Have you been involved in a confrontation?
    Being there to see hear and feel what happens?

    I would appreciate you answering this question.


    I will relate my first experience . This happened 40 years ago.
    The memory is as if it were last week.

    It is contained in this thread.
    https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/spirit...ne-492837.html
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    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #9

    Mar 14, 2011, 08:06 PM

    The simple fact is that Ghosts are not proven, in fact most people believe it is silly and don't take it serious.

    Even when it is, out of 1000's of reports, groups like the Catholic Church have only found a few they would rate as supernatural.

    In most cases what we have are scared teens or younger, who hear things, pipes, boards, limbs and a combination of those. The shaddows are just that, light tricks, lights in photos are just events that happen due to lighting and/or flash and more

    So in general if someone claims to be a expert in ghosts and the such, we normally just rate them a nut case and fairly well ignore them
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    #10

    Mar 14, 2011, 08:22 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck View Post
    The simple fact is that Ghosts are not proven, in fact most people beleive it is silly and don't take it serious.

    Even when it is, out of 1000's of reports, groups like the Catholic Church have only found a few they would rate as supernatural.

    In most cases what we have are scared teens or younger, who hear things, pipes, boards, limbs and a combination of those. The shaddows are just that, light tricks, lights in photos are just events that happen due to lighting and/or flash and more

    so in general if someone claims to be a expert in ghosts and the such, we normally just rate them a nut case and fairly well ignore them
    Exactly. Reducing the fear and ""empowering"" people with things
    To do that doesn't cost them anything gives them some perspective is usually enough .

    I do not think the spirits of the dead (ghosts) dwell here.

    I know something does and no matter what you name it ,

    I experienced it. And it changed my life.

    Great input Padre. Thanks
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    #11

    Mar 15, 2011, 12:51 PM
    Comment on martinizing2's post
    I'm not sure what you're asking me. Have I witnessed somebody demon possessed? Yes. Have I personally dealt in confrontation... yes, literally PERSONALLY, as I was on the end of it. Have I been through every single experience that can be imagined... of course not.
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    #12

    Mar 15, 2011, 01:01 PM
    I couldn't care less how many encounters the Catholic church would rate as legit because the Catholic Church has it's head so far up it's own butt it can't see clearly.

    It's important to help people think clearly about this situation, certainly... but to say that these spiritual encounters on these levels are rare is ignorant. Dr. Lester Sumrall literally had people come to his church WEEKLY from around the world for deliverance from these spirits.. and these aren't the 'bump in the night' ones either... these were hardcore, "grown man talking out of a little girls mouth" type of problems. Why was he able to dig these up while the Catholic Church can only find them here and there... because a lot of these things only manifest when confronted with spiritual authority. These things do go on more than most people will believe.

    Is every case? Certainly not... but I take these things VERY seriously.
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    #13

    Mar 16, 2011, 03:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by hauntinghelper View Post
    I could care less how many encounters the Catholic church would rate as legit because the Catholic Church has it's head so far up it's own butt it can't see clearly.

    It's important to help people think clearly about this situation, certainly...but to say that these spiritual encounters on these levels are rare is ignorant. Dr. Lester Sumrall literally had people come to his church WEEKLY from around the world for deliverance from these spirits..and these aren't the 'bump in the night' ones either...these were hardcore, "grown man talking out of a little girls mouth" type of problems. Why was he able to dig these up while the Catholic Church can only find them here and there...because a lot of these things only manifest when confronted with spiritual authority. These things do go on more than most people will believe.

    Is every case? Certainly not...but I take these things VERY seriously.
    That answers my question.
    I now know much better where you are coming from.

    I too take these very seriously.
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    #14

    Mar 16, 2011, 05:17 PM
    If I may ask... what is your background and beliefs in the spiritual world?
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    #15

    Mar 16, 2011, 06:23 PM

    Spiritual as in relation to God.

    I have no doubt God exists .
    As for religion I think they all say the same thing generally .
    Many hold the same people in high esteem , Abraham as one example. And tell the same stories like Noah.
    But where they all agree is that they are the one and only way
    To God and heaven.
    I can see no way for this to be true.

    I believe that if you truly seek God you will find him. It does not have to be in the traditions and rituals that were mostly started as a means to gain or retain power over the people.

    I believe we are taught by all religions to be honest, kind , and help where we see the need.
    But this can be done outside their parameters without all the crap that's been inserted over the ages.

    The bible does not say enough about the souls of men to make a determination about the possibility of them being what we refer to as ghosts.

    But what are commonly called ghosts exist. The millions of encounters documented throughout history up to today make dismissing them impossible to any sane person not blinded by
    The teachings they refuse to question.

    It does for sure talk about demons , their origin and purpose and how to deal with them. These are not ghosts.

    Over the last 40 years I have sought answers about this.
    It started with the experience I pointed out in a previous thread
    https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/spiritu...ne-492837.html
    And I am seeking answers still, and will until I die.
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    #16

    Mar 16, 2011, 07:52 PM
    "I have no doubt God exists .
    As for religion I think they all say the same thing generally .
    Many hold the same people in high esteem , Abraham as one example. And tell the same stories like Noah.
    But where they all agree is that they are the one and only way
    to God and heaven.
    I can see no way for this to be true."

    You nailed it right on the head with that one. They can't all be true. It's impossible. Either Jesus Christ was THE ONLY way to God the Father as he claimed... or He wasn't. There is no in between.


    "I believe that if you truly seek God you will find him. It does not have to be in the traditions and rituals that were mostly started as a means to gain or retain power over the people."

    The bible says exactly that... and man reaching his hand into religion and adding all this junk that we have now should is the reason we have had so many problems. The Crusades are a prime example. Just because man sticks his hand in there does not mean God did too.

    You are absolutely right, "ghosts" are out there. SOMETHING is out there from the spiritual realm making CONSTANT contact with humanity. I believe someone simply has to COMPLETELY ignorant to think they don't exist. There are too many encounters from too many credible people/situations. It HAS to be accounted for. You know as well as I do that the bible does not out and out say "ghosts are not dead people". But I do believe that it gives us enough information to support that humans spirits do not return OR remain. It's kind of like the word "rapture" and "trinity" not actually being in the bible, but the doctrine is... and on top of that, so much of the real world experiences of people like Lester Sumrall back up that doctrine. I even know of an instance where a spirit was manifesting the shape of the subject's dead sister and it asked him "did I get it right? Did I get her shape right?" The bible tells us flat out that these spirits can come with the appearance of good. They are simply making a mockery of human life.
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    #17

    Mar 17, 2011, 05:45 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by hauntinghelper View Post
    Quoting Martinizing2

    "I have no doubt God exists .
    As for religion I think they all say the same thing generally .
    Many hold the same people in high esteem , Abraham as one example. And tell the same stories like Noah.
    But where they all agree is that they are the one and only way
    to God and heaven.
    I can see no way for this to be true."

    Originally Posted by hauntinghelper

    You nailed it right on the head with that one. They can't all be true. It's impossible. Either Jesus Christ was THE ONLY way to God the Father as he claimed...or He wasn't. There is no in between.


    .
    Actually my point here is that religious organizations all claim to be of God (or whatever name they have) and you have to follow their teachings , ceremonies, and rituals in order to find God and enter into his presence.
    I believe they all may have some of it right , but none have the only way.

    For all the diversity mankind is composed of , and the millions upon millions of people who never hear or learn of the other beliefs %2
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    #18

    Mar 17, 2011, 05:55 AM
    Comment on martinizing2's post
    This did not post properly. I will add the remainder that didn't post
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    #19

    Mar 17, 2011, 06:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by martinizing2 View Post
    Actually my point here is that religious organizations all claim to be of God (or whatever name they have) and you have to follow their teachings , ceremonies, and rituals in order to find God and enter into his presence.
    I believe they all may have some of it right , but none have the only way.

    For all the diversity mankind is composed of , and the millions upon millions of people who never hear or learn of the other beliefs will be damned and sent to hell.

    All religions teach that God is just and merciful and loves each of us as His creations.
    This is incongruous and contradictory to God sending a majority of His creations to hell for being born where , or at a point in time the knowledge is not available.
    There has to be more than one way.

    God exists in us all, and that is where He will be found.
    Edit this is the complete post
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    #20

    Mar 17, 2011, 04:57 PM
    I don't believe everybody is going to be judged by if they heard the name of Jesus before... and the bible doesn't teach that. God will judge those differently. God has told us that His morality is written on everybody's heart... and that they will be judged by. But it is a different story all together when someone HAS been preached Jesus, and they refuse.

    Just because MOST (not all) religions teach that God is all loving, or merciful, or just does not mean they have followed through with what He wants from us. It's not the "believing" factor that gives you a relationship with God, it's what you DO with that belief that gets you somewhere. Yes, Islam teaches most of the same attributes about God as Judaism and Christianity... but they aren't following His statutes... and that is where they are missing out. Yes Buddhism teaches peace and love also... there is truth to that... but it denies the very things God claims about sinful humanity and their need for His salvation. It's not that every religion is absolutely wrong... they all have truth do them... but it's not the saving truth.

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