[binx44]

I'm really tired of how this world works at times when it comes to pet ownership and breeding. I'm tired of the people who don't think before they jump into things. Tired of seeing homeless dogs, sick dogs, genetically unsound dogs or vicious dogs.

I have a first pick (best dog out of the litter) rare breed bulldog whom I plan on eventually using as my foundation for my breeding program. He may be sexually mature right now BUT, I am waiting until he is at least two years old because of testing for hip displaysia and genetic testing. I have been researching this breed for two years and I still am not ready to move forward into breeding. I've researched the genetics of his family, looking for abnormalities, health defects, temperament problems. Once I do move into the breeding aspect I won't have litters whenever I feel like it, only when I feel the combination of the two parents would better the breed, even if that's only once in two years or more. I'm also going completely Legal, Registering a small business, registering a kennel. Any female Bred to my male cannot be a merle due to the lethal gene in dogs. So I've been taking careful consideration of that too. I researched for months through "closed" stud books expanding my dogs pedigree to reach 7 generations so I can see how much of the merle gene runs in his family, along with size, health and temperament. Its taken months on end and I still am not done nor am I ready to breed just yet.

What I don't understand, is why people will just buy two dogs of opposite genders, and decide "Hey, i think i'll breed these guys" without taking health into account, or temperament, genetic compatibility, over population of a breed. It bugs me they see the popularity of a breed and decide to pump out puppies in an unsanitary location, without a whelping box or area set up, then wonder why the female gets mastitis or the puppies are sick and die or they get parvo.
I see tons of people, acquiring sick dogs, fattening them up and thinking they are OK to breed, a woman here in my province got charged for selling pups with parvo out of her van on the side of the road to unsuspecting buyers. I see people who breed and end up not being able to sell their pups and either dump them off at a shelter, pet store or just plain killing them. I think its sad. That people have no compassion for animals, or their health and well being. I hope that one day, laws get strong enough that people won't breed dogs without proper knowledge for fear of going to jail. We don't need an over population of animals on this planet in shelters like we do now. I agree in spaying or neutering pet quality animals, or breeding animals past their prime so they cannot be overbred.

Sorry for my rant. But this world is driving me crazy and I hope that my words maybe change the minds of some people and they decide not to breed a dog for the heck of it

[JudyKayTee]

I don't know why anyone breeds. There are people out there who study genetics for years and still don't have answers. High quality kennels with tons of money at their access have been trying to improve breeds for years.

They managed to ruin GSDs for more than a few years. Same with Collies - according to my Vet. The standard for GSDs, the low slung back and hind quarters, in my eyes has ruined the breed.

All of my dogs have been rescues. I had a very expensive GSD years ago, brought to the US from Hungary. Never had a problem, had all the tests, she was sound. She was certified. One day, when she was THREE, the displasia problems started. The breeder wanted her back to put her down because he did not want it known that there was a "flaw" in the line.

She was spayed from an early age, I refused to return her, she lived to be 12.

I have also found people who buy best of the litter, have 4 or 5 or however many puppies, sell them - and then those dogs are used to breed almost indiscriminately. I don't know how that gets stopped.

The local animal shelter calls me on a weekly basis to take in foster puppies.

I'm saying you can do your best and never know.

I think breeding is an individual choice. I would never - no exceptions. Other people would with exceptions. Other people (and I agree, the questions on the board often turn my stomach) just don't care.

[Emily94]

I agree.

The local pet stores here no longer take in puppies unless there from the shelter (and not anyone can get them, it is just basically a display for the shelter), no one can just drop of there litter they couldn't sell. If your wanting a specific breed they give you a list of breeders and tell you to give them a try, or they give you a name of a breed specific rescue. I think what there doing is great, it will definantly cut down on back yard breeding and puppymills. Now if people who wanted to breed there dog stepped inside a rescue and watched as puppies were KILLED because no one wanted them. If no one wants that mixed breed there not going to want any one else's, but people don't understand that.

I applaud registered breeders, they could easily lose thousands of dollars a litter, but they still do it, specifically for that breed. But BYB don't care, they don't tests anything, they don't even know the people there selling there pups to!

[JudyKayTee]

- Also a few words about people who are breeding designer dogs.

[mogrann]

I agree sweetie. That is why I trust your opinion so much about Owen. I know you love animals and will give the best advice for him.
I would have loved to have had baby Owen's but we made the decision not to and to have him neutered due to his allergies and elbow. I feel I was being responsible by thinking of the consequences ahead of time. I want our breed to improve! I think if you are truly a pet lover you will make the decision that is the best for your pet and not for you.



Moggy

[shazamataz]

Ahhhh if only everyone did the right thing. It will never happen sadly, there are always greedy, money hungry people out there.

I know quite a few people who have owned dogs with problem... big problems so they contacted the dogs breeder to let them know.

Now a responsible breeder would have had the parents desexed and made sure that all the offspring were desexed as well. Nope, they kept breeding the parents and didn't even let the other puppy owners know it was in the line. Some of the puppies were destined to be show dogs and will most probably be bred from down the track... just because they don't have a genetic problem doesn't mean they can't carry it.

There are bad breeders everywhere, in the show ring, in back yards, in puppy farms, it's depressing to think about it.
And what's worse is the majority of people who don't show/breed dogs don't even understand the implications of breeding a dog with genetic problems... I have even had one lady compare me to Hitler trying to wipe out certain dogs.

Dogs don't think the same way people do... they have a desire to reproduce but that it is... they don't desire to be mothers, they simply desire to mate. Not breeding dogs with problems is hardly genocide and is the best thing for them.

In this day and age you also have to consider the new owners and what they will do if their dog has problems.
If you sell someone a dog that has or carries a genetic problem you can be sued. I know I wouldn't risk it.

[Lucky098]

I think the only way to stop the overpopulation of animals is to attack the kennel clubs.

Not very familure with your kennel club, but the AKC will register anything.

Europe, in order to register a dog, it needs to have titled in something. Either obedience, citizenship or a tripple Champion hunting title.. ITS HAS TO PROVE ITS WORTH BREEDING! It wouldn't stop all of the backyard breeding, but I think it would targe those who think that a AKC registered dog is big stuff.

It makes me sick how humans treat Gods little creatures. If I ever decided to become a breeder, I think I wold be a "dog snob" and would breed to proven dogs only. Although, my confidence in the legit breeders plumted when I saw a breed of very well bred european pointers for sale with the label "We will ship anywhere in the world" From what I read on the website, none of the pups went out on limited registration, none of them were fixed.. they were all guaranteed to hunt. So, some jackass is going to purchase one, wreck it, breed it, and sell to some yokle down the street who hunts every so often.

I just hate it! Whenever I feel like this, I start getting ideas like Manditory Spays and Neuter.. altering a dog should be free and so on. Maybe some day I'll just get pissed off enough and actually pursue my tangents ;)

People suck, I think that is the result. It seems as if all the help in the world just doesn't make a dent in the over population and slaughter of these animals. *sigh*

[shazamataz]

Not all kennel clubs are bad, from what I understand it's only the American one that needs work.

From the ANKC (Australian National Kennel Council) code of ethics, any deviation from these and the member can be removed from the registry and their dogs not allowed to be exhibited in any competitions be it outright owned or in a partnership with another member:

Each member, upon being elected or re elected to membership of a Member Body of the ANKC shall be bound by the ANKC Code of Practice subject to each States relevant legislation.

Breeding

11. A member shall breed primarily for the purpose of improving the quality and / or working ability of the breed in accordance with the breed standard, and not specifically for the pet or commercial market.

12. A member shall not breed with a ***** unless the ***** has reached adequate maturity for that breed as determined by the member's Member Body.

13. A member shall not breed a ***** (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than twice in eighteen months without the prior approval of the member's Member Body.

14. A member shall not breed a ***** (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member's Member Body.

15. A member shall not permit any of that member's pure bred dogs to be mated to a dog of a different breed, to a cross bred dog, to an unregistered dog of the same breed, or to a dog not on the Main Register without the prior approval of the member's Member Body.

16. A member shall take responsible action to reduce the incidence of hereditary diseases in accordance with the ANKC Code of Practice for Hereditary Diseases.

17. A member shall not, within Australia, sell or otherwise transfer from that member's care any puppy under eight [8] weeks of age without the approval of the member's Member Body.

18. A member shall not export a puppy under the age of eleven [11] weeks, or such greater age permitted under the livestock import requirements of the country to which the puppy is being exported.

19. A member shall not knowingly sell a dog to any person residing in an overseas country known to be involved in the utilisation of dogs for the meat trade without first satisfying the member's Member Body that the purchaser is a member of an ANKC recognised canine controlling body in the overseas country. The member and purchaser must further acknowledge in writing to the member's Member Body that the intention of the sale is for the improvement of the quality of that breed in the overseas country, and not for any other purpose.

20. A member shall ensure that persons acquiring dogs from that member understand the requirements for the care, welfare and responsible ownership of the dog, and that they have the time and facilities, e.g. adequate fences, sufficient room and proper shelter, to fulfil their responsibilities.

21. A breeder shall be expected to maintain reasonable contact with the purchasers of dogs from that breeder and to offer continued advice and reasonable assistance.

22. A member shall register all puppies bred (excluding those breeds listed in ANKC Regulation Part 6, Section 6.2 whose specific colours precludes them from being registered on any Register) by that member that are living at the date of registration. Such registration must include all puppies from the litter on the one litter registration application form and must be applied for within eighteen [18] months of the date of whelping. (6/08)

23. A member shall provide to all recipients of dogs sold or otherwise disposed of by that member, written details of:

.1 The breed characteristics;

.2 Vaccination record and / or requirements;

.3 Responsible dog ownership information; and

.4 All documentation required by the member's Member Body.

24. A member shall not incorrectly describe nor knowingly misrepresent the characteristics of a breed.

25. A member shall ensure that all dogs sold or disposed or by that member are in the best possible state of health. Where a dog with a health issue or disability is disposed of the member must obtain from the recipient written and signed acknowledgement of the condition of the dog.

26. A member shall not:

.1 Sell or dispose of a dog to a commercial pet wholesaler or retail pet shop unless they are accredited by the Pet Industry Association of Australia Limited (PIAA).

.2 Allow a dog owned by that member to be given as a prize or donation or to be auctioned.

General

27. A member who provides or makes available a dog for use in a film, advertisement, promotion, or any media or public display must ensure that:

.1 The dog is portrayed in a manner consistent with its breed characteristics and temperament as described in the Standard for that breed; and

.2 The dog is presented in a manner that is unlikely to create a negative reaction to dogs generally or that breed in particular and that if there is any likelihood of a negative impression, this is at the same time corrected through the development of a story line that presents the dog or breed in a balanced manner.

28. A member shall not indulge in false or misleading advertising relating to the conformation, characteristics or performance of that member's dog.

29. A member shall not misrepresent nor malign the conformation, characteristics or performance of another member's dog.

[Aurora_Bell]

I really don't have a problem with responsible breeder or kennel clubs. I think it's the pet stores that need to be boycotted. Even purchasing dog food, heck fish food is supporting them. I know some pet stores only "adopt" dogs out for the SPCA, but there is still a LOT of stores out there who don't.

[Emily94]

[QUOTE=Lucky098;2730880]I think the only way to stop the overpopulation of animals is to attack the kennel clubs.

Not very familure with your kennel club, but the AKC will register anything.

Europe, in order to register a dog, it needs to have titled in something. Either obedience, citizenship or a tripple Champion hunting title.. ITS HAS TO PROVE ITS WORTH BREEDING! It wouldn't stop all of the backyard breeding, but I think it would targe those who think that a AKC registered dog is big stuff.
QUOTE]


As far as I know (please tell me if I am wrong) but your dog being registered means it is purebred, at least that's what I understand. It does not mean your dog is "breedable" by any standards, it is just saying that your dog is pure for that breed. CKC registered puppies are sold under a no breeding agreement (Maybe that is just breeders here being responsible) where I live, and if you want breeding rights they pick the puppy your allowed to have, if it takes 6 years for them to get that puppy that is worthy to breed then so be it, some will NEVER sell you breeding rights, simply because you know nothing about breeding.

[Lucky098]

Yes, Emily, a dog being registered to a kennel club shows proof that the animal is pure bred. But, just because the animal is pure bred, doesn't mean it worth breeding. A lot of people from where I am from will breed based on the fact the dog has AKC papers. Not on the agility, trainability or quality of the dog. That is the US #1 problem. The #2 problem is the fact that people aren't spaying and neutering their pets. I think that is because spaying and neutering costs too much. A puppy that got adopted a few years back was spayed for $800. To me, that is a huge rip off.

I think the more I go into my vet school, the more ticked I'm going to get. Last Friday, I ran the full blood/serum test that typically costs $200 or higher.. It was so easy. Ugh!

Of coarse the American CK are worse! We have the worse over-population too!

Puppy mills are bad, but.. in case you all didn't hear... A law passed in the PuppyMill capitol of America enforcing proper hygene in puppymills. 80% of the puppy mills closed their doors because they cannot get their facility to meet these new standards! I think that is AWESOME! And I believe most of the dogs went into a rescue of some sort. My breed really isn't in the puppymills, so I didn't get to experience the full impact of the puppymill closing...

Their website Missourians for the Protection of Dogs

If you're a good breeder, 7 out of the 8 puppies will be sold under limited registration.. meaning, you cannot breed and will not receive papers on the dog until proof of spay/neuter... so.. you pretty much have a "worthless" dog. If you bred it, you'd be sued, and your puppies wouldn't be worth the money you paid for the breeding and/or dog.

[Emily94]

All right, I just was wondering, I thought that you were implying that only dogs that are being bred should be registered.


$800?? For a spay?? WHAT?? It's like.. $200 here, if that, and that's if you get all the blood tests and stuff done at the same time!

There is one vet that is super cheap here, it exepts donations so there costs are lower, a neuter can be as cheap as $40!

[shazamataz]

C-sections don't even cost $800 here. They must have been gullible to pay that much.

If you're a good breeder, 7 out of the 8 puppies will be sold under limited registration.. meaning, you cannot breed and will not receive papers on the dog until proof of spay/neuter... so.. you pretty much have a "worthless" dog. If you bred it, you'd be sued, and your puppies wouldn't be worth the money you paid for the breeding and/or dog.

No, you do not have a worthless dog, you have a pedigree dog.
Limit register does not mean the dog cannot be bred from, just that they pups cannot be registered with the kennel club.
That doesn't stop the designer d*ckheads lying to breeders and then breeding the dogs.

[Lucky098]

I guess worthless is the wrong word, because they're not.. But I suppose on the high end breeding end, they would be considered that. The dog has to have papers in order for it to be "worth" anything to a selective group of people (idiots).

Which is why I pinpoint the AKC as the US's #1 problem for over-population. If it has papers, it should be bred because it's a "pure-bred AKC papered dog"... Ugh :(

[shazamataz]

Unsubscribing before I say something I regret.