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    Maxedout's Avatar
    Maxedout Posts: 11, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Jan 17, 2007, 12:29 PM
    Briggs Vanguard will not start
    Briggs Vanguard, 15 hp OHV Model 280777 Type 0112.01 Code 94121154A
    Simplicity Brood Moor...

    The oil was checked and gas was checked prior to starting, the mower had been sitting for 4 to 6 weeks due to cold weather. I decided to started it and ran it at normal start speed until It warmed up. I maintain my mowers very well as they are my lively hood!

    Ok, it will not start! I was blowing leafs, just with the deck no blowers attached, the mower ran fine for well over and hour, I rode the mower to my mothers home and while I was riding I noticed a pinging that seemed to be coming from the deck, I checked it and discovered it was coming from the motor, I being DUMB ignored that, and kept riding thinking a bolt or part of the covers was loose because that's what it sounded like!

    The pinging sound wasn't very noticeable, but after reaching my mothers I used the throttle to speed the engine to engage the PTO, the motor seemed to ping louder so I very quickly lowered the RPMS and listened, the pinging became soft again. So I engaged the PTO at a lower RPM and proceeded to blow the leafs, only going a short distance the mower seemed to be OK, so I again attempted to speed the rpms up slightly and again the pinging became loud, so I lowered it, and it seemed to FLOOD OUT and the pinging got pretty bad and it went dead. Will not start and seems to be hard to turn over..

    I did notice the pinging sound before I parked it for winter but forgot about it until this happened.


    Any suggestions, or information would be of great help, I am currently not able to work due to illness and money is very tight in our home.
    I do have some mechanical experience and feel very comfortable working with engines, but like information as I am not a professional mechanic!
    newaukumdon's Avatar
    newaukumdon Posts: 525, Reputation: 44
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    #2

    Jan 17, 2007, 05:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxedout
    Briggs Vanguard, 15 hp OHV Model 280777 Type 0112.01 Code 94121154A
    Simplicity Brood Moor...

    The oil was checked and gas was checked prior to starting, the mower had been sitting for 4 to 6 weeks due to cold weather. I decided to started it and ran it at normal start speed until It warmed up. I maintain my mowers very well as they are my lively hood!

    Ok, it will not start! I was blowing leafs, just with the deck no blowers attached, the mower ran fine for well over and hour, I rode the mower to my mothers home and while I was riding I noticed a pinging that seemed to be coming from the deck, I checked it and discovered it was coming from the motor, I being DUMB ignored that, and kept riding thinking a bolt or part of the covers was loose because that's what it sounded like!

    The pinging sound wasn't very noticeable, but after reaching my mothers I used the throttle to speed the engine to engage the PTO, the motor seemed to ping louder so I very quickly lowered the RPMS and listened, the pinging became soft again. So I engaged the PTO at a lower RPM and proceeded to blow the leafs, only going a short distance the mower seemed to be ok, so I again attempted to speed the rpms up slightly and again the pinging became loud, so I lowered it, and it seemed to FLOOD OUT and the pinging got pretty bad and it went dead. Will not start and seems to be hard to turn over..

    I did notice the pinging sound before I parked it for winter but forgot about it until this happened.


    Any suggestions, or information would be of great help, I am currently not able to work due to illness and money is very tight in our home.
    I do have some mechanical experience and feel very comfortable working with engines, but like information as I am not a professional mechanic!
    What makes you believe it "flooded out". Have you checked for a clogged or soaked air filter? Sometimes the pulley assembly on the crankshaft will come loose and that could cause a pinging and then possibly shear the timing (flywheel) key. This does not however solve the hard to turn over problem.

    If all of the above has been checked pull the valve covers and check your valve clearance. With what you are describing if there is a valve problem it will be obvious when you remove the valve covers. Turn the engine over and watch for valve travel see if both valves on either side are traveling roughly the same distance, I have heard of cam lobes wearing flat due to a machining defect from briggs and stratton.

    I may be all over the place on this one but it is hard to diagnose without listening.

    Good luck and keep me posted,
    Don
    Maxedout's Avatar
    Maxedout Posts: 11, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Jan 17, 2007, 08:08 PM
    Hi Don, thanks for the help!
    OK, when I say flooding it did sound like that. I am not sure flooding was a problem at all, it just sounded this way. While this happened it may help to know as the engine started to die, I did try to increase the throttle quickly. The pinging got louder and was very loud this time around so I quickly decreased it. It died, and has not started since, it does seem to be hard turning over with the starter and will turn over a couple of times with ease and then seems to bind. I have not attempted to turn it by hand as of yet.

    My son feels the connecting arm has either come loose or broken, I don't think this is the case, I am leaning towards the valves and why is because after this happened, I noticed oil coming from the OHV cover and that didn't look good.

    I do know the engine was supposedly re-built about 2 months before I purchased it. It has ran perfectly until this happened. It does have a draggy starter at times if this helps, and seems to get worse when it's hot. I had the starter checked and was told it was fine and could be a safety switch or voltage regulator, or the Simplicity Electronic Module getting hot causing the dragging!

    I know you must be at your wits end trying to figure this out just by reading about it. I can see the engine and have really been afraid to look at it because of what I might find. LOL!

    I paid out the wazoo for this thing and got one mowing season out of it! Now I am back to walking and mowing!
    Maxedout's Avatar
    Maxedout Posts: 11, Reputation: 1
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    #4

    Jan 17, 2007, 08:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxedout
    Briggs Vanguard, 15 hp OHV Model 280777 Type 0112.01 Code 94121154A
    Simplicity Brood Moor...

    The oil was checked and gas was checked prior to starting, the mower had been sitting for 4 to 6 weeks due to cold weather. I decided to started it and ran it at normal start speed until It warmed up. I maintain my mowers very well as they are my lively hood!

    Ok, it will not start! I was blowing leafs, just with the deck no blowers attached, the mower ran fine for well over and hour, I rode the mower to my mothers home and while I was riding I noticed a pinging that seemed to be coming from the deck, I checked it and discovered it was coming from the motor, I being DUMB ignored that, and kept riding thinking a bolt or part of the covers was loose because that's what it sounded like!

    The pinging sound wasn't very noticeable, but after reaching my mothers I used the throttle to speed the engine to engage the PTO, the motor seemed to ping louder so I very quickly lowered the RPMS and listened, the pinging became soft again. So I engaged the PTO at a lower RPM and proceeded to blow the leafs, only going a short distance the mower seemed to be ok, so I again attempted to speed the rpms up slightly and again the pinging became loud, so I lowered it, and it seemed to FLOOD OUT and the pinging got pretty bad and it went dead. Will not start and seems to be hard to turn over..

    I did notice the pinging sound before I parked it for winter but forgot about it until this happened.


    Any suggestions, or information would be of great help, I am currently not able to work due to illness and money is very tight in our home.
    I do have some mechanical experience and feel very comfortable working with engines, but like information as I am not a professional mechanic!
    Hi Don, thanks for the help!
    OK, when I say flooding it did sound like that. I am not sure flooding was a problem at all, it just sounded this way. While this happened it may help to know as the engine started to die, I did try to increase the throttle quickly. The pinging got louder and was very loud this time around so I quickly decreased it. It died, and has not started since, it does seem to be hard turning over with the starter and will turn over a couple of times with ease and then seems to bind. I have not attempted to turn it by hand as of yet.

    My son feels the connecting arm has either come loose or broken, I don't think this is the case, I am leaning towards the valves and why is because after this happened, I noticed oil coming from the OHV cover and that didn't look good.

    I do know the engine was supposedly re-built about 2 months before I purchased it. It has ran perfectly until this happened. It does have a draggy starter at times if this helps, and seems to get worse when it's hot. I had the starter checked and was told it was fine and could be a safety switch or voltage regulator, or the Simplicity Electronic Module getting hot causing the dragging!

    I know you must be at your wits end trying to figure this out just by reading about it. I can see the engine and have really been afraid to look at it because of what I might find. LOL!

    I paid out the wazoo for this thing and got one mowing season out of it! Now I am back to walking and mowing!
    newaukumdon's Avatar
    newaukumdon Posts: 525, Reputation: 44
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    #5

    Jan 17, 2007, 09:25 PM
    The fact that oil is coming out the breather says that maybe we have a crankcase full of gas from a leaky carburetor. Check your oil and see if it is over full and or smells like fuel. This would explain the hard cranking due to fluid in the cylinder.

    Check that and get back to me
    Don

    Ps if you would like to instant message me with your phone# Iwill call and we can go over a couple ideas.
    Maxedout's Avatar
    Maxedout Posts: 11, Reputation: 1
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    #6

    Jan 20, 2007, 12:54 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by newaukumdon
    The fact that oil is coming out the breather says that maybe we have a crankcase full of gas from a leaky carburetor. Check your oil and see if it is over full and or smells like fuel. This would explain the hard cranking due to fluid in the cylinder.

    Check that and get back to me
    Don

    Ps if you would like to instant message me with your phone# Iwill call and we can go over a couple ideas.

    Hi Don, thanks again for the help! I am new here to the website so I don't know how to PM right now. Maybe I can figure it out.. BECAUSE I STILL NEED YOUR HELP!!

    OK, this is what we discovered, I removed the OHV cover, where we found a lot of oil and like you said, found what I think is the problems. One, a broken Push Rod! And The guide plate (thin metal plate with the words top on it) that has the plastic inserts was broken and the plate bent badly! I think after looking at this both push rods became to loose and this caused the problem. I HOPE! My son said the Cam could be worn enough that the valves didn't stay adjusted correctly for a period and would require either a new cam or constant adjustments of the rods. If that makes sense? HE also said whom ever repaired the engine may not have adjusted the valves correctly and this caused the problems.

    He said that from time to time I needed to check the adjustments in the future to make sure they stayed correctly set.

    Ok do you have a ruff ideal as to costs of a new rod or rods?

    OK THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, ONE OF THESE RODS LOOKS NEW AND IS MADE FROM ALUMINIUM (broken was the new looking one) and THE OTHER IS MADE OF STEEL?

    What I think is one is original and the other is NEW but was unsure. I ALSO WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHY THIS HAPPENED? This is my thought, I think, had this rod been made stronger it would have caused much more damages than what we found if it got so badly out of adjustments.

    I was glad it was made from aluminium! LOL

    DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEALS AS TO WHY THIS WOULD HAPPEN? THINGS TO CHECK?

    Once I get new rods I'll need instructions on how to adjust them correctly IF I am lucky enough not to have other damages inside the motor!

    What's odd about it, this motor is (has been) always very easy to start and never gave any clues the valves had become out of adjustments. It always ran well and never backfired or anything... I think its odd... LOL

    The motor was supposedly rebuilt before I purchased it and I suppose this is why the differences in rods?


    You can contact me at ke4cijXXXXgmail.com just remove the xxx's and use the correct key...
    I would surely like to speak with you more about this...
    thebriggsdude's Avatar
    thebriggsdude Posts: 1,096, Reputation: 53
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    #7

    Jan 21, 2007, 12:50 AM
    No, aluminum intake, steel exhaust.
    The cam sounds OK if the valves still open right when the pushrods are replaced... a flat cam wouldn't allow the pushrods to open the valves much, or at all... and would require a adjustment WAY out of spec to get it to move them.
    All of these flat tappet briggs, need adjustments/checks every year to every other.

    Check it with the engine 1/4th below tdc (top dead center) with a feeler gauge. Refer to the engine owners manual (get it at briggsandstratton.com) for the correct specs. And yes they could have been too tight, and caused this failure.
    Maxedout's Avatar
    Maxedout Posts: 11, Reputation: 1
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    #8

    Jan 21, 2007, 04:54 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by thebriggsdude
    No, aluminum intake, steel exhaust.
    The cam sounds ok if the valves still open right when the pushrods are replaced... a flat cam wouldn't allow the pushrods to open the valves much, or at all.... and would require a adjustment WAY out of spec to get it to move them.
    All of these flat tappet briggs, need adjustments/checks every year to every other.

    Check it with the engine 1/4th below tdc (top dead center) with a feeler guage. Refer to the engine owners manual (get it at briggsandstratton.com) for the correct specs. And yes they could have been too tight, and caused this failure.

    I've looked at Briggs site and unable to locate the manual for this motor. I don't think valves was tight, I think it was the other way, to loose. Maybe wrong but it ran fine and then became worse until this happened.

    I talked to the mans mother last evening, who I purchased the mower from, she said that this had happened 2 times before and then it was rebuilt. So that would say something isn't right some where... I am leaning towards the cam... I don't think it was replaced so it is possible that he was so out of adjustments...

    The mower is something like a 94 model I think or maybe a 96 and gave years of services without mishaps. Supposedly the guy had it rebuilt the summer before I purchased it last summer. He had told me it had new rods and the works, he was right about that.. LOL
    Maxedout's Avatar
    Maxedout Posts: 11, Reputation: 1
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    #9

    Jan 21, 2007, 05:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by thebriggsdude
    No, aluminum intake, steel exhaust.
    The cam sounds ok if the valves still open right when the pushrods are replaced... a flat cam wouldn't allow the pushrods to open the valves much, or at all.... and would require a adjustment WAY out of spec to get it to move them.
    All of these flat tappet briggs, need adjustments/checks every year to every other.

    Check it with the engine 1/4th below tdc (top dead center) with a feeler guage. Refer to the engine owners manual (get it at briggsandstratton.com) for the correct specs. And yes they could have been too tight, and caused this failure.
    I forgot to mention, last night we discovered the entire end of the exhaust muffler was blown apart. I don't know if that has anything to do with anything. This muffler is Simplicity I'd suppose and was really heavy duty.
    Maxedout's Avatar
    Maxedout Posts: 11, Reputation: 1
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    #10

    Jan 21, 2007, 08:55 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by thebriggsdude
    No, aluminum intake, steel exhaust.
    The cam sounds ok if the valves still open right when the pushrods are replaced... a flat cam wouldn't allow the pushrods to open the valves much, or at all.... and would require a adjustment WAY out of spec to get it to move them.
    All of these flat tappet briggs, need adjustments/checks every year to every other.

    Check it with the engine 1/4th below tdc (top dead center) with a feeler guage. Refer to the engine owners manual (get it at briggsandstratton.com) for the correct specs. And yes they could have been too tight, and caused this failure.

    Guys, I talked to my son a minute ago, he posed a good question I wasn't able to answer.

    WHY is the intake side push rod made of aluminium and the exhaust made push rod made from steel?

    I thought perhaps it was designed to break or bend on purpose but then he asked WHY?
    thebriggsdude's Avatar
    thebriggsdude Posts: 1,096, Reputation: 53
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    #11

    Jan 23, 2007, 01:54 AM
    Steel to hold up against exhaust temps... (sometimes they are hollow) and yes, made to not cause much damage when they are broken...
    Btw, some vanguard vtwins can have both of them aluminum... depends on model.
    Same way with the cams on these newer engines... they are a composite material... so inherently less drag... less weight, less wear... but also if it pops, not going to cause much damage. You could just have a DUD of a engine... briggs does make the most engines of all manufacturers...
    newaukumdon's Avatar
    newaukumdon Posts: 525, Reputation: 44
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    #12

    Jan 23, 2007, 08:01 AM
    Another user had a similar problem with a 14.5 HP and contacted a good briggs dealer with the model and type. He found out there was a problem with the cams (exhaust lobe) and there was a warranty fix for it.. . Yours may be to old for warranty but worth the effort. I do not see in your postings where you have confirmed valve travel?

    You need to perform the diagnostic on valve travle to determine if cam is worn.
    Maxedout's Avatar
    Maxedout Posts: 11, Reputation: 1
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    #13

    Jan 23, 2007, 10:00 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by newaukumdon
    Another user had a similar problem with a 14.5 HP and contacted a good briggs dealer with the model and type. He found out there was a problem with the cams (exhaust lobe) and there was a warranty fix for it. . . yours may be to old for warranty but worth the effort. I do not see in your postings where you have confirmed valve travel?

    You need to perform the diagnostic on valve travle to determine if cam is worn.
    Thanks guys, you've certainly helped me out with this information. I have not confirmed valve travel yet due to the fact I've not gotten the replacement parts needed. I also need a manual to do that. I have not been able to locate the manual on Briggs Website and I'm unsure what to do.

    I've listed all the information located on the motor on the 1st thread, if either of you see this an locate a manual please let me know!
    One thing, I was told this morning that a Briggs needed a certain amount of back pressure from the exhaust to run correctly? If the muffler was damaged then this could explain why the push rod bent. IS this true? I've seen Briggs motors run with no muffler or straight pipes. I kind of thought that was out there. But then I asked someone else and they said it was possible because it had over head valves. I was told that some new engines needed that back pressure to help with pollution control and was designed to run with this pressure. Even cars and trucks faced the same troubles if the exhaust became damaged.

    Thanks also for clearing up why they used different metals for the push rods. In my case I guess it would help to also know the intake and exhaust. Differences in metals makes it easy to see the differences and would make things much easier to figure out when making adjustments...
    Maxedout's Avatar
    Maxedout Posts: 11, Reputation: 1
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    #14

    Jan 27, 2007, 08:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by newaukumdon
    Another user had a similar problem with a 14.5 HP and contacted a good briggs dealer with the model and type. He found out there was a problem with the cams (exhaust lobe) and there was a warranty fix for it. . . yours may be to old for warranty but worth the effort. I do not see in your postings where you have confirmed valve travel?

    You need to perform the diagnostic on valve travle to determine if cam is worn.
    UPDATE!

    Don, I wanted to thank you for the phone call and the tips you gave me! I Really appreciate your helping me. Briggs guy thank you for your information and your time it also really helped me and I very much appreciated the help

    Don, the phone call put my thinking cap on and the Vanguard LIVES! I installed the new push rods and I discovered the Valve Cap was very worn and damaged. I haven't had a chance to replace it but I used a polishing stone and smoothed up some ruff edges. I adjusted the valves on the compression stroke. I also found the entire end of the exhaust muffler had been exploded and damaged.

    The engine purrs like a kitten! I am replacing both Valve caps and the muffler as soon as possible and will not be running it anymore. I also found one of the valve cover screws had striped out. I was able to repair this using an insert, drilled and tapped new threads.

    At any rate, I have a few simple repairs to make and I should be back in business!

    Thanks again and As I complete repairs I will up date the thread!

    Thanks Much!
    Best Regards
    Max
    thebriggsdude's Avatar
    thebriggsdude Posts: 1,096, Reputation: 53
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    #15

    Jan 30, 2007, 11:51 PM
    Great the hear!

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