[kompes]

Megg,
I agree with you when you wrote in one of your earlier posts that we are all made by one supreme being. I think what is important from here is to know something about that supreme being. The question is how are we to go about learning about that supreme being? What knowledge is available to us and how do we get it?

Cheers,
David

[followerofjesuschrist]

I agree with some ideas from all of you please don't put all of us christians on the bad side I don't want to judge anyone and I am trying to love everyone even my enemies as my lord as saviour Jesus Christ who prayed for the ones who killed him on the cross(jewish Priest) but I don't blame jews and the only religion which I strongly disagree is satanics where THEY REALLY DO WORSHIP THE DEVIL AND MAKE SACRIFICES BY KILLING BABIES ETC. I may not know much about the bible but then again I am still growing with the lord I ammit that I ain't perfect only God, the holy spirit, and Jesus Christ are perfect I also believe that only Jesus christ is the way to heavan but I am not going to force anyone to turn to him or judge him because I do not know how he or she feels or what they been through but I pray that they will turn form the evil ways they have been living in and go to the lord I pray for all of you and I hope that you all learn that There is some people that are very religious and are still sinning and try not to repent or just go to church so people could say "hey look! he is worshipping the lord the loudest he must truly be spiritual!" they are just religious and would burn in hell unless they repent which I truly hope they do(the repenting part :)) because God is not a religious God he wants to have a personal relitionship with every single 1 of us so I pray that you megg will return to the lord in your time because nothing good could come from returning to him if you are being forced to.

p.s. I'm truly sorry that any of you are offened by my answer but I believe that is the way. God Bless ALL of you

p.s.s I'm 16 years old so if any of you want to say I'm immature go for it.

[ordinaryguy]

because God is not a religious God

I like this. I think there's a deep truth here.

[mugger]

As a pagan, the only discontent with Christians is that they killed people who wouldn't convert. Ala.. St. Patrick leading the "snakes" (or pagans) out of Ireland. Other than that, I couldn't care what anyone believes in.

[mrah]

People always hate on what they don't understand. Just know that you are right, and they are right. We could all get along if we agreed to disagree

[Roy02780]

I agree to a certain extent but you can't put all people in the same category. That is a stereo typing. Not all catholics believe you will go to hell. I think its basically because they have never picked up a book on the subject becaue they were taught that anything to do with Witchcraft is bad. And it scares them to look at something other then there bible. My beliefs are that the god and goddess can be what you want them to be. And if you wish them to be in the form of jesus and mary so be it. It only changes when you name them. As pagans we use the energy of a lot of deities but we all have one that we use in everyday use. I also agree that there is no good or bad witchcraft its all in the intent you set forth on it, however I do believe Satanism is evil and it is a selfish religion. You can not practice the religion without a sacrifice of some living thing in a terrible manor. Pagans use to make sacrifices hundreds of years ago but not eat the heart of anything to better themselves. As a earth religion we (Pagans) have come to make offerings rather then sacrifices.

[Megg]

Yes all christians who are Truly christians believe wiccans will go to hell. Its not stereo typing. Its fact. Its in the bible. God does not like witchcraft. Those who wish to enter the kingdom of heaven can only due so through me. Me being the lord.

[Roy02780]

Hi Meg,
But that isn't what you said. You said and I quote" Why do people assume that Wicca is satanic and that I'm going to hell!' Sorry if I misunderstood. But like in magick you need to be clear in what you say and leave no room for miss inturpetation. You probery are right in regards to devout christians but the normal everyday christians really don't believe that.

[Credendovidis]

I'd love to know why ppl think if your wiccan your going to hell, or that your a sananist.

Perhaps because they are afraid of what they do not know , and because many have been brainwashed for years to listen and follow the "correct" ways and paths of life (meaning the ways and paths as per their own religious preferences)?

[squeaks77]

I'd love to know why ppl think if your wiccan your going to hell, or that your a sananist. From my experiance (i was brought up christian) christian's look down upon the wiccan and or pagan religion's. Because it's not following ''god's'' will. Thus, were (wiccan's and or pagan's going to hell. It's so very rude to judge someone who believes differently. It's ignorant to also try to preach to them and convert them. Why do ppl do this? I personally hate it and wish i could beat ppl down for it. Make's me crazy. Wicca/pagan ppl do not have anything to do with satanism. There is what is called a left and right hand path. Light per say and dark. Neither path is evil. Satanism in a certain perspective is perfectly fine. It is wrong (to me) when a sanaist kills ppl or animals to sacrifice. But, it started out as a ''selfinvolved'' religion. Meaning that focus was on self other then the world or other's. Wicca and pagan's are the other route.

The only answer is to be non-confrontational. I have friends who I refer to as Crispies (very very Christian/Republican), they invite me to a few church things a year and I try to attend at least one thing (because my friend's in whatever the event is). Since they are my good friends the are naturally worried my soul will go to hell because I'm a tree hugging dirt worshipper :D . They tell me they pray for me and I say thank you. Some more confrontation person might say, "No thank you I have my own god/goddess". My take is that my life isn't so wonderful that I won't accept prayers to gods I don't personally pray to. If you have friends who repeatedly preach at you (but don't confuse a good debate for preaching) just ask to stop in a pleasant way such as "I thank you for your concern, but you really make me uncomfortable when you preach to me. I'm gonna go now." Unless they are a total blockhead, they will won't argue.
When I first started to research Wicca (I classify myself as dirt worshipper- I love having faith but refuse all religion) and talked about it to my friends they'd all get that certain look in their eyes - like they had a sudden need for holy water. The most common question was the confusion with Satanism. So I decided to do some research on Satanism - written by it's own followers not someone looking down upon it already. Guess what I found out? The church of Satan isn't that bad. Hm. Totally self centered, but they don't sacrifice animals or humans. Sure there may always be some tramuatized goth kids with black eyeliner abusing and killing animals saying they are doing Satan's will, but there are also the Christians who bomb abortion clinics or Priests who look for love in all the wrong places, so each side has it's freaks that the whole religion should not be judged upon. Heck, I don't like religion because in each one it's becomes about the people of the church and power plays rather than faith. When someone asks me to join their I just say no, thank you with a sincere smile on my face and walk away before they can argue.

Wow, I think this is my longest post ever. :rolleyes:

[Credendovidis]

Guess what I found out? The church of Satan isn't that bad.

Of course it is not that bad! It is just a belief, equal to Christianity or any other main religion - with the only exception of the deity involved.
Just as there is no objective supported evidence for the correctness of the Christian claim, none is there for any other main-religion claims, Church of Satan claim, "Church of the Flying Pink Unicorn" claim , Wicca claim , "Church of the Spaghetti Monster claim , etc. etc. etc.

In short there is no objective supported evidence for any religious belief. All a person can do is BELIEVE in the existence and/or in the powers of one or more deities , whomever that deity may be. In other words the belief in any deity is based on lots of hot air, so it does not matter which deity one refers to, be that God, Allah, Hara Krishna, Devil, the Pink Unicorn, the Spaghetti Monster, Wicca deities, etc. : all of them are as far as objective supported evidence is concerned totally imaginairy !

:rolleyes:

[ordinaryguy]

In short there is no objective supported evidence for any religious belief.
....

all of them are as far as objective supported evidence is concerned totally imaginairy!

You make it sound like that's a BAD thing. What makes "objective supported evidence" so special , and what's so wrong with imagining "realities" that inspire us? If I thought the only useful realities were those that depend on "objective supported evidence", I'd be pissed.

[Credendovidis]

You make it sound like that's a BAD thing. What makes "objective supported evidence" so special , and what's so wrong with imagining "realities" that inspire us?

It seems that you drew some negative conclusions and suggest now that that is my position. I wonder why you do that...

As long as people REALLY understand that all religion and religious thinking is based on BELIEF and not on OBJECTIVE SUPPORTED REALITY, I see no problem with specific religious views.
But the intolerance shown by so many theists - here and elsewhere - for believers with different views and/or for those rejecting such views show that many theists have lost this understanding of reality and/or the link with reality, and have convinced themselves that what they believe equals reality for them.

So seen this way your "what's wrong with imagining realitites that inspire us" indeed shows that losing that firm grip on understanding the difference between reality and imagining realities is a big and important one.

Understanding what is "objective supported evidence" is important to all of us, and understanding the difference between real "objective supported evidence" and "imagining *realities* that inspire us" is just as important.

Thank you for allowing me to point that out even clearer than I did before !

:D

[ordinaryguy]

It seems that you drew some negative conclusions and suggest now that that is my position. I wonder why you do that ...

I just like to rattle the cage of hyper-rationality/objectivity that you've placed around yourself.

As long as people REALLY understand that all religion and religious thinking is based on BELIEF and not on OBJECTIVE SUPPORTED REALITY, I see no problem with specific religious views.

I guess I don't see the distinction that you draw between BELIEF and OBJECTIVE SUPPORTED REALITY being as clear and unambiguous as you do.

But the intolerance shown by so many theists - here and elsewhere - for believers with different views and/or for those rejecting such views show that many theists have lost this understanding of reality and/or the link with reality, and have convinced themselves that what they believe equals reality for them.

In my experience, theists are neither more nor less likely to be intolerant than atheists. It's a significant minority in both camps. Being a mystic, rather than a theist, atheist, or agnostic, I have encountered intolerance from all three, though far less often from agnostics.

So seen this way your "what's wrong with imagining realitites that inspire us" indeed shows that losing that firm grip on understanding the difference between reality and imagining realities is a big and important one.

Understanding what is "objective supported evidence" is important to all of us, and understanding the difference between real "objective supported evidence" and "imagining *realities* that inspire us" is just as important.

You are free to choose and live within a "reality" that includes only what you can observe directly and explain logically. But your choice in that regard is no more binding on others than their *imagined realities* are on you.

Your insistence that any BELIEF that goes beyond OBJECTIVITY is an inferior version of reality (or worse, a dangerous delusion) is your own value judgment, nothing more. It is legitimate and binding on you, and those who agree with you, no one else.

Thank you for allowing me to point that out even clearer than I did before!

You're welcome, although it wasn't a lack of clarity in your statements that prompted my response. I disagree with the fundamentals of your position, not your statement of it.

[Credendovidis]

I just like to rattle the cage of hyper-rationality/objectivity that you've placed around yourself.

You're free to believe whatever you like but religious beliefs of whatever sort are so far based on a lot of hot air, and nothing else, as - even after thousands of years - religion has never been able to support any of it's wild dogmatic claims objectively.

As to rationality : people supporting that view are at least trying (and are actually doing quite well in doing so) to support their findings on an objective supported evidence basis.

That does not make such views better than religious views in some moral or ethical way, but surely make them more valuable in a practical, pragmatic, scientific, and realistic way.

I always say : believe whatever you like to believe, as long as you realize that you believe that !

:rolleyes:

[AshesoftheRose]

I don't know where you went to church, or what your parents are like, or how you think things through, but I believe that your "Christian experience" must have been all wrong if you're this upset about Christianity as a whole. You say that it's not just Christianity, but it seems to be the only one you mention or get riled up about. I grew up Christian as well, and I love it. Of course I think sitting through long classes is boring, but I can't sit still in school either. It's a type of learning style, not weather or not I like the subject material. I would kill myself if I had to go to Sunday school ALL Sunday, but I could sit down with the Bible and just read by myself for days. I've never looked down on, felt pity for, or preached to anyone of a different religion. Quite a few of my friends are actively Pagan, Hindu, Jewish, and (one)Shinto. I love diversity and thrive in it. My father was an atheist his entire life before he took a theology course in college and came to Jesus. I was once asked by a friend to baptize her(I was so scared that I would drop her).

I just don't understand this stereotype about Christians looking down on others, being preachy, or hating gays and witches(actually my father was adopted and his birth mother was a hippie lesbian witch, who did this one-time thing in a field with a guy and dumped her preemie asthmatic baby in an orphanage.. ). Whenever I mention that I'm Christian, I get this look that resembles disgust, and people ask me if I'm racist. It's really ridiculous. Christians are normal, smart, caring, artistic, individuals just like everyone else. Some Christians even believe in evolution. Did you know that?

And while we're on stereotypes, every friend I have that's moved here from another state originally thought that West Virginia was filled with racist, bigoted, gun-slinging, fanatical, rednecks. What the heck?

1) If you or your neighbor don't own a gun, you WILL get your trash run through by bears.
2) WV fought with the Union, and on top of that, has been a democratic state for decades.
3) I live in the capital. We have every clique imaginable. The 'creekers' or rednecks as you know them, are a very small minority who annoy the rest of us and are ignored. Every state has their weirdos.
And 4) I was told just recently that my friend from Florida was told that WV was a dump, and that she was shocked to find that it's so beautiful. Now people think we're ugly? Really? How immature. XD