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    leslye09's Avatar
    leslye09 Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Jul 24, 2010, 03:33 PM
    Is there such thing as hell?
    I was raised as a catholic
    But I think maybe religions just use that to scare people to keep bringing them back to church.
    Unfortunately that's what priest feed of, the people!

    I was also told that hell is just a state in your should that doesn't let you see God!
    But what about the eternal fire?
    LibrariansApprentice's Avatar
    LibrariansApprentice Posts: 6, Reputation: 0
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    #2

    Jul 24, 2010, 03:42 PM
    Hell is derived from the nordic "godess" Hel that guards the realm where those vikings go who fail to die in battle. So it is an idea taken from older religions but if that makes it more or less likely to be true depends.
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #3

    Jul 24, 2010, 06:38 PM

    Hell is described several ways in the Bible. Fire is a common motif, but so is darkness, so is sorrow, chains, and there are lots of other images. Basically they're all attempts to describe the indescribable because our finite minds can't comprehend it.

    Basically it's the absence of God. The general impression is that it's a state of complete isolation, so Mark Twain's famous comment about "heaven for climate, hell for company" is way off base. There's no indication or hint anywhere that Satan rules or even lives in hell. Those are just a few thoughts. In the Bible, it definitely exists. But we know very little about it except that it's not a place anybody would want to go, and there's an easy way to avoid it.
    letmetellu's Avatar
    letmetellu Posts: 3,151, Reputation: 317
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    #4

    Jul 24, 2010, 07:35 PM

    I believe that there is a heaven and a hell, the people that believe like me are very happy in the way we believe, the ones that don't believe that way we do sure hope that we are wrong.
    Clough's Avatar
    Clough Posts: 26,677, Reputation: 1649
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    #5

    Jul 24, 2010, 08:15 PM
    Just so people are aware who post on this thread...

    The subject is discussed at length on the following thread.

    LINK

    Thanks!
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #6

    Jul 24, 2010, 08:36 PM

    As with heaven the exact things that happen, and how it will be like, is not totally know. The fact it exists is not at debate, since as a Christian, we believe the bible to be true, and the bible tells us there is a heaven and a hell.

    Of course mankind does not want there to be one, since if there is, then failure to be saved has a punishment
    Moparbyfar's Avatar
    Moparbyfar Posts: 262, Reputation: 49
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    #7

    Jul 24, 2010, 10:24 PM

    Ecclesiastes 9:5 states "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten."

    If the wicked suffered literally in hell then this scripture would have no meaning. Also compare Psalms 146:3,4 which tells us that in the day one perishes, his thoughts do perish. Literal torment requires feeling, something that according to these scriptures we don't have when we die (the dead are conscious of nothing at all).

    Job even begged God to "protect him in Sheol (hell) and keep him secret until his anger turns back" due to the terrible suffering he was experiencing, meaning he wanted to die. Would he say this if Sheol was a place of eternal torment? Therefore Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek) simply means "the common grave of mankind".

    Clearly, the bible's view of hell is not in harmony with the idea that it is a literal place of torment.
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #8

    Jul 24, 2010, 10:28 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Moparbyfar View Post
    Ecclesiastes 9:5 states "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten."

    If the wicked suffered literally in hell then this scripture would have no meaning. Also compare Psalms 146:3,4 which tells us that in the day one perishes, his thoughts do perish. Literal torment requires feeling, something that according to these scriptures we don't have when we die (the dead are conscious of nothing at all).

    Job even begged God to "protect him in Sheol (hell) and keep him secret until his anger turns back" due to the terrible suffering he was experiencing, meaning he wanted to die. Would he say this if Sheol was a place of eternal torment? Therefore Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek) simply means "the common grave of mankind".

    Clearly, the bible's view of hell is not in harmony with the idea that it is a literal place of torment.
    And of course, Jesus didn't know what he was talking about when he described a place of sorrow, weeping and gnashing of teeth, where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched.

    All three of the passages you cited are looking from a human perspective, not from God's, and describe only the body, not the total person. Context is everything.
    Moparbyfar's Avatar
    Moparbyfar Posts: 262, Reputation: 49
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    #9

    Jul 24, 2010, 10:33 PM
    [QUOTE=dwashbur;2450317]
    All three of the passages you cited are looking from a human perspective, not from God's,
    Hmm so what you're saying is, the bible is the word of man, not God? I have to disagree there.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #10

    Jul 24, 2010, 11:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Moparbyfar View Post
    Hmm so what you're saying is, the bible is the word of man, not God? I have to disagree there.
    That's not what Dave is saying at all. If you read the entire passages, you will see that these are simply observations by a living man to the status of a deceased one. As we living look at a dead man, we notice that he can no longer eat or breathe or drink or work to earn money or have conscious thoughts. The Ecclesiastes passage goes on to tell us to enjoy life while we can, because, before we know it, life will be over and we will be dead. Psalms says when we die, we return to the earth and all our plans perish. The passages are simply commenting on the brevity of man's lifespan, not on heaven or hell.
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #11

    Jul 25, 2010, 11:12 AM
    [QUOTE=Moparbyfar;2450319]
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post


    Hmm so what you're saying is, the bible is the word of man, not God? I have to disagree there.
    Nice try, but pretty lame. You know that's not what I said, so please don't misquote me.

    Let's take each in turn.

    Ecclesiastes makes no bones about the fact that its viewpoint is that of man "under the sun." i.e. he's ONLY looking at life from an earthly perspective, and he tells the reader so more than a dozen times. If you're going to go with Ecclesiastes as your primary theology text, then you also have to conclude that all of life is meaningless and there's no point to it; "all is vanity and chasing after wind." Is this your view of life? You also have to conclude that there's no better way to live than to be a self-indulgent Epicurean; is that how you live? Eat, drink, and make Mary, for tomorrow we die. Great theology, that.

    Psalms 146:3,4 is next. What does it actually say?

    Do not put your trust in princes,
    In mortal men, who cannot save.
    4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground;
    On that very day their plans come to nothing.
    Note several important things. It doesn't say their "thoughts" cease, it says their plans come to nothing. In other words, if you trust in mortal men to rescue you, you may or may not get rescued because if they die then you're right back where you started. A dead prince can't do anything for you, no matter what his intentions were. Notice also the phrase "when their spirit departs." That's a clear statement that something leaves the body and goes somewhere else, so you're not doing yourself much good with this passage. Once again, context is everything.

    As for Job, you didn't give a reference. Job also called down a curse on the day he was born. Do you take that as prescriptive theology as well? I repeat: context is everything.

    Now I have a question for you: if it's so clear in the Bible that "hell," or whatever one chooses as a translation of the various words in question, is just "the common grave of mankind" then why do you only go with Old Testament quotes, ripped out of their clear context? Jesus gave us a clear picture of the departed righteous and the departed wicked in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, he gave us numerous images depicting a place of sorrow and loneliness and made it clear that he was talking about a real place. I suggest you deal with his words as they stand and learn from them.
    LibrariansApprentice's Avatar
    LibrariansApprentice Posts: 6, Reputation: 0
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    #12

    Jul 25, 2010, 11:14 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck View Post
    As with heaven the exact things that happen, and how it will be like, is not totally know. The fact it exists is not at debate, since as a Christian, we believe the bible to be true, and the bible tells us there is a heaven and a hell.

    Of course mankind does not want there to be one, since if there is, then failure to be saved has a punishment
    The bible says many things and most of if contradicts with itself, unsurprisingly since it is written by many over a long period.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #13

    Jul 25, 2010, 11:39 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by LibrariansApprentice View Post
    The bible says many things and most of if contradicts with itself, unsurprisingly since it is written by many over a long period of time.
    Actually, the Bible does a great job of NOT contradicting itself, since it was written by so many over such a long period.
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #14

    Jul 25, 2010, 12:12 PM

    No, only those that wish to not believe the bible find issues, and as with many things, it has evolved over time, starting with the history of the Hebrew nation with evolved into the Christian Church of today. Mans own sinful nature and desire to do his own will is the only thing that finds fault in the bible.

    It is the true word of God and is true in what it says, one only has to listen and believe.
    LibrariansApprentice's Avatar
    LibrariansApprentice Posts: 6, Reputation: 0
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    #15

    Jul 25, 2010, 12:36 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Actually, the Bible does a great job of NOT contradicting itself, since it was written by so many over such a long period.
    I googled bible contradictions and selected the first result, here's 66 contradictions for you to mull over:

    A List Of Biblical Contradictions
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #16

    Jul 25, 2010, 12:43 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by LibrariansApprentice View Post
    I googled bible contradictions and selected the first result, heres 66 contradictions for you to mull over:
    Yeah, yeah. I've seen that list before. The Bible also says the trees of the field clapped their hands and mentions the four corners of the earth. More contradictions. Oy vey! Sorry, I don't mull over such silliness as the list on that site.
    LibrariansApprentice's Avatar
    LibrariansApprentice Posts: 6, Reputation: 0
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    #17

    Jul 25, 2010, 12:54 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Yeah, yeah. I've seen that list before. The Bible also says the trees of the field clapped their hands and mentions the four corners of the earth. More contradictions. Oy vey! Sorry, I don't mull over such silliness as the list on that site.
    Those aren't contradictions unless the Bible also says that trees don't have hands and that the earth has five corners.
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #18

    Jul 25, 2010, 01:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Yeah, yeah. I've seen that list before. The Bible also says the trees of the field clapped their hands and mentions the four corners of the earth. More contradictions. Oy vey! Sorry, I don't mull over such silliness as the list on that site.
    It also says the sun rises and sets. Obvious contradiction! That list is one of the phoniest I've ever seen, and I've seen plenty.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #19

    Jul 25, 2010, 02:15 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by LibrariansApprentice View Post
    Those aren't contradictions unless the Bible also says that trees don't have hands and that the earth has five corners.
    God made your brain. Your brain says trees don't have hands, and the earth doesn't have FOUR (not five) corners.

    Or wait! Are you really saying, since the Bible says so, trees really do clap their hands, and the earth has four corners?

    You're arguing yourself into one of those corners.
    TUT317's Avatar
    TUT317 Posts: 657, Reputation: 76
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    #20

    Jul 25, 2010, 02:44 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by LibrariansApprentice View Post
    I googled bible contradictions and selected the first result, heres 66 contradictions for you to mull over:

    A List Of Biblical Contradictions
    Many contradictions appear because science did not exist in the Ancient world. The sun going around the earth was assumed to be correct for thousands of years. Biblical scholars could only explain things in terms of their understanding. In other words, as humans we can only explain things in terms of 'common knowledge' of the day.

    I don't really see a problem with this.


    Tut

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