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    Catsmine's Avatar
    Catsmine Posts: 3,826, Reputation: 739
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    #1

    Jul 18, 2010, 10:30 AM
    Tax increases have begun (to be admitted)
    The Health Insurance Bill is at last being called a tax increase.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/he...1&ref=politics

    Mr. Obama “has not been honest with the American people about the nature of this bill,”
    according to Jack Balkin, a Yale law professor
    This bill is a tax. Because it’s a tax, it’s completely constitutional.”
    I think I'm going to start a new political party: The Repeal Party. Reform has screwed us left, right and sideways, so let's just start repealing. Party Platform: Every action adopted by the Congress shall include the repeal of a previous Act.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #2

    Jul 18, 2010, 11:50 AM

    I wrote this on an email discussion earlier today.

    When the Constitutionality of Social Security was contested in court , FDR reversed course and successfully argued that Social Security was not a 'trust fund' as it had been sold to the public.Instead,it was a tax ;and the Constitution gave Congress broad and expansive taxing authority.

    Now President Obama intends to use the same argument in court to justify the mandate that forces individuals to purchase health insurance .
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/he...1&ref=politics

    In a brief defending the law, the Justice Department says the requirement for people to carry insurance or pay the penalty is “a valid exercise” of Congress’s power to impose taxes.
    Congress can use its taxing power “even for purposes that would exceed its powers under other provisions” of the Constitution, the department said.
    Of course ,during the run-up to passing Obama-care the
    President and Congressional Dems. Refused to admit that there were any tax increases associated with the legislation .
    “For us to say that you’ve got to take a responsibility to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase,” the president said last September, in a spirited exchange with George Stephanopoulos on the ABC News program “This Week.”
    When Mr. Stephanopoulos said the penalty appeared to fit the dictionary definition of a tax, Mr. Obama replied, “I absolutely reject that notion.”
    Much like Social Security before it ;Obama-care was sold with lies.

    The Obots will use one of the most insidious decisions wrongfully decided by SCOTUS ;the Wickard v Filburn case to justify the constitutionality of the provision .
    In that case ;Filburn was growing wheat above the quota set by the government for his and his family's consumption . The Agriculture Adjustment Act of 1938 had set quotas on the amount of wheat put into interstate commerce and established penalties for overproduction.The amt. of wheat he grew for himself and what he sold on the market exceeded the quota.

    Filburn argued that since he was growing the excess for his own use and it wasn't going to be traded in the market that the government had no business including it in it's taxing authority .
    But Roosevelt successfully made the bogus argument that even if it wasn't in the market ,it affected the market price. Let's say you grow your own tomatoes. That means there are fewer tomatoes being purchased at the grocery store... which in turn affects the price because of the difference in the demand. So even though his wheat was not going onto the market ,it was affecting the market price of wheat. Therefore Congress had a right to regulate the wheat he grew for personal consumption.

    The Obots have argued all along that their plan for "univeral coverage " could not succeed without the mandate for personal coverage. Why ? Because the people who normally opt out of insurance voluntarily are healthy people who don't need it.

    But ;if coverage is voluntary and provisions for preconditions are dropped ,then the healthy can wait until they are sick before signing onto the plan. In addition ,if everyone is covered regardless of their condition ,there needs to be healthy people in the plan contributing money into the pool if there is any chance for the plan to succeed. Thus the mandate.

    Questions:
    You have to have income to be taxed. How will the government collect this new tax from people who don't have income ,or don't pay income taxes at all under current tax code (roughly 40% of America) ?

    During the campaign for the Presidency ,Obama said that no one with incomes below $250,000 would have their taxes increased . Doesn't this make that promise a lie ?
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #3

    Jul 18, 2010, 12:01 PM

    They of course have backed up on the 250,000 now that is per family not per person
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #4

    Jul 18, 2010, 12:56 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Catsmine View Post
    The Health Insurance Bill is at last being called a tax increase..
    Hello Cats:

    That's a good spin. At least you didn't revive the death panel bull crap. But the article really didn't say that, did it? Here's the first paragraph:

    WASHINGTON — When Congress required most Americans to obtain health insurance or pay a penalty, Democrats denied that they were creating a new tax. But in court, the Obama administration and its allies now defend the requirement as an exercise of the government's “power to lay and collect taxes.”
    ----------------

    So, it's the MANDATE that's being called a tax. The assumption being that if you HAVE insurance, you won't be mandated or taxed. That would be MOST us, wouldn't it? That's a tad different than what you said.

    Now, I don't know how this law will eventually work itself out. The AIM was to save money and serve more people. I know it COULD be done that way, because we waste a lot of money. I don't know if THIS law is going to do it.

    excon
    Catsmine's Avatar
    Catsmine Posts: 3,826, Reputation: 739
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    #5

    Jul 18, 2010, 01:26 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello Cats:

    That's a good spin. At least you didn't revive the death panel bull crap. But the article really didn't say that, did it? Here's the first paragraph:

    WASHINGTON — When Congress required most Americans to obtain health insurance or pay a penalty, Democrats denied that they were creating a new tax. But in court, the Obama administration and its allies now defend the requirement as an exercise of the government’s “power to lay and collect taxes.”
    ----------------

    So, it's the MANDATE that's being called a tax. The assumption being that if you HAVE insurance, you won't be mandated or taxed. That would be MOST us, wouldn't it? That's a tad different than what you said.

    Now, I don't know how this law will eventually work itself out. The AIM was to save money and serve more people. I know it COULD be done that way, because we waste a lot of money. I don't know if THIS law is going to do it.

    Excon
    At least you've been cured of calling it a Health Care Bill.

    No, I didn't call the mandate a tax.
    This bill is a tax.
    according to Professor Balkin.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #6

    Jul 18, 2010, 02:44 PM

    I guess the pertinent question in the Slimes article is this statement :

    Congress can use its taxing power "even for purposes that would exceed its powers under other provisions" of the Constitution, the department said.

    Who agrees with that ? Hands up if you agree.
    By the way ,not sure about this ,but was the mandate structured like a tax ? I bet it wasn't . More deception .
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #7

    Jul 19, 2010, 05:38 AM

    If I recall, backers shifted gears in this direction within a few weeks of passage. Nice to see the Slimes finally caught on.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #8

    Jul 20, 2010, 02:14 AM

    The Slimes is always late to the table (if they bother covering it at all ).

    Steve , you make purchases in your business.. correct ? Under Obamacare for some reason (probably because no one read the bill ) there is a new requirement to itemize and report to the IRS on 1099s any business purchase over $600 .
    Small business is going to be swamped in red tape ;and this will be a hiring bonanza for the IRS ,which already hires over 40,000 people to administer our arcane tax laws.
    Health care law's hidden tax change to launch 1099 avalanche - May. 5, 2010

    What they have yet to grasp is that it's exactly this type of over-regulation that drives small business out of business and creates industry consolidation... and that in turn creates large corporations that they then complain are "too big to fail".
    Catsmine's Avatar
    Catsmine Posts: 3,826, Reputation: 739
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    #9

    Jul 20, 2010, 02:21 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    If I recall, backers shifted gears in this direction within a few weeks of passage. Nice to see the Slimes finally caught on.
    You guys are missing the point. The Times reported it. We're looking at an LBJ moment here.
    "If I've lost Cronkite, I've lost middle America"
    If he's lost the Times, has he lost the NY intelligentsia?
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #10

    Jul 21, 2010, 01:43 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The Slimes is always late to the table (if they bother covering it at all ).

    Steve , you make purchases in your business ..correct ? Under Obamacare for some reason (probably because no one read the bill ) there is a new requirement to itemize and report to the IRS on 1099s any business purchase over $600 .
    Small business is going to be swamped in red tape ;and this will be a hiring bonanza for the IRS ,which already hires over 40,000 people to administer our arcane tax laws.
    Health care law's hidden tax change to launch 1099 avalanche - May. 5, 2010

    What they have yet to grasp is that it's exactly this type of over-regulation that drives small business out of business and creates industry consolidation....and that in turn creates large corporations that they then complain are "too big to fail".
    Are you guys kidding? We used to have this sort of nonsense under sales tax legislation but ten years ago we swept it all away. It is time you got a twenty first century taxation system and moved on. Bureaucracy serves the people not the other way around. You have to start with the premise business is essentially honest, maybe that's your problem, the bureaucrats just don't trust you
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #11

    Jul 21, 2010, 02:38 AM

    Clete as you may have noticed ,as nations have tried and discarded ,or are in the process of rejecting systems ,the current adm is bringing theses failed policies into our system .

    At the G8 meetings Obama was the only world leader arguing for the massive increases in spending for economic recovery.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #12

    Jul 21, 2010, 07:23 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Steve , you make purchases in your business ..correct ? Under Obamacare for some reason (probably because no one read the bill ) there is a new requirement to itemize and report to the IRS on 1099s any business purchase over $600 .
    Small business is going to be swamped in red tape ;and this will be a hiring bonanza for the IRS ,which already hires over 40,000 people to administer our arcane tax laws.
    Yep, I think I pointed this out earlier myself - to the sound of crickets chirping.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #13

    Jul 21, 2010, 07:44 AM

    It's going to come as a shock to a lot of small business people who are not paying attention . A $600+ purchase is routine here just for normal operations.
    Catsmine's Avatar
    Catsmine Posts: 3,826, Reputation: 739
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    #14

    Jul 21, 2010, 12:48 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    It's gonna come as a shock to alot of small business people who are not paying attention . A $600+ purchase is routine here just for normal operations.
    Truth. So far I have Wally World, Office Depot, five different gas station companies, and ebay(though I'm not sure about that one) just in the second quarter.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #15

    Jul 21, 2010, 02:55 PM

    You are my kind of entrepreneur ! But all those damn 1099s every time you got to buy a few cases of oil filters!! Outrageous!!
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #16

    Jul 21, 2010, 06:12 PM
    I though you guys had a remedy for this sort of thing, it's called revolution. After all, isn't this why you have guns, to oppose administration?
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    #17

    Jul 21, 2010, 06:31 PM

    The Declaration of Independence :

    ... Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed....
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #18

    Jul 21, 2010, 06:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The Declaration of Independence :

    .....Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed........
    So you are saying the revolutionaries thought it was better to suck it up, now there is a double standard
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #19

    Jul 21, 2010, 07:49 PM

    No ,but there rage was slow to simmer . The outrages did not begin in 1776 .
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #20

    Jul 21, 2010, 07:55 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    no ,but there rage was slow to simmer . The outrages did not begin in 1776 .
    Well your rage can simmer while your businesses are flooded with billions of pieces of paper in an age of electronic communication until they grind to a halt under the piles of paper warfare. And for what? So some public servant can verify something sometime. There must be a lot of fraudalent transactions in your system for someone to want this sort of solution in addition to whatever paperwork is normally generated. Haven't these guys ever heard of invoices, which are already in existence.

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