[tomder55]

Continued from another OP https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/curren...-477070-4.html


Did the coup that overthrew Mohammad Mosaddeq in Iran create modern jihadistan ?

No I don't think so. I believe it really began with the post WWI breakup of the Ottoman Empire.The spiritual history of the movement is not in fact founded in Iran at all . It dates to apx 1928 and Hassan al-Banna in Egypt. He is the founding father of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The stated goals of the movement was to to instill the Koran and Sunnah as the [I]"sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state". The group sees Islamic rule as necessary to counter Western influence.

It was the teachings of the Muslim brotherhood that most influenced OBL ;not any perceived slights against the Shia in Iran (who's people generally love the United States and would love the freedoms denied them by the current regime) .

Specifically OBL studied the life and philosophy of Sayyid Qutb,the leading intellectual of the Muslim Brotherhood in the 1950s and '60s.

Even though most of his observations and criticism were leveled at the Muslim world, Qutb is also known for his disapproval of the society and culture of the United States which he saw as obsessed with materialism and violence.[

United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

... Qutb published an article entitled "The America that I Have Seen." He was critical of many things he had observed in the United States: its materialism, individual freedoms, economic system, racism, brutal boxing matches, "poor" haircuts,superficiality in conversations and friendships, restrictions on divorce, enthusiasm for sports, lack of artistic feeling,"animal-like" mixing of the sexes (which "went on even in churches"),and lack of support for the Palestinian struggle. He noted with disapproval the sexuality of American women:

The American girl is well acquainted with her body's seductive capacity. She knows it lies in the face, and in expressive eyes, and thirsty lips. She knows seductiveness lies in the round breasts, the full buttocks, and in the shapely thighs, sleek legs — and she shows all this and does not hide it.

His experience in the U.S. is believed to have formed in part the impetus for his rejection of Western values and his move towards radicalism upon returning to Egypt.

Qutb had influence on Islamic insurgent/terror groups in Egypt and elsewhere. His influence on Al Qaeda was felt through his writing, his followers and especially through his brother, Muhammad Qutb, who moved to Saudi Arabia following his release from prison in Egypt and became a professor of Islamic Studies and edited, published and promoted his brother Sayyid's work.

One of Muhammad Qutb's students and later an ardent follower was Ayman Zawahiri, who went on to become a member of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and later a mentor of Osama bin Laden and a leading member of al-Qaeda.

Deny it all you want but the truth is they really do hate us for who we are .

[NeedKarma]

Some good reading here as well that relates directly to the subject: 1953 Iranian coup d'état - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Specifically:

According to the history based on documents released to the National Security Archive and reflected in the book Mohammad Mosaddeq and the 1953 Coup in Iran, edited by Mark J. Gasiorowski and Malcolm Byrne, the coup caused long-lasting damage to the U.S. reputation.

"The '28 Mordad' coup, as it is known by its Persian date, was a watershed for Iran, for the Middle East and for the standing of the United States in the region. The joint U.S.-British operation ended Iran's drive to assert sovereign control over its own resources and helped put an end to a vibrant chapter in the history of the country's nationalist and democratic movements. These consequences resonated with dramatic effect in later years. When the Shah finally fell in 1979, memories of the U.S. intervention in 1953, which made possible the monarch's subsequent, and increasingly unpopular, 25-year reign intensified the anti-American character of the revolution in the minds of many Iranians."

Jacob G. Hornberger, founder and president, of The Future of Freedom Foundation, said, "U.S. officials, not surprisingly, considered the operation one of their greatest foreign policy successes—until, that is, the enormous convulsion that rocked Iranian society with the violent ouster of the Shah and the installation of a virulently anti-American Islamic regime in 1979". According to him, "the coup, in essence, paved the way for the rise to power of the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and all the rest that's happened right up to 9/11 and beyond"

[tomder55]

Jacob Hornberger has the libertarian views that has been discussed here before. It doesn't surprise me that he sees it that way.

[paraclete]

Deny it all you want but the truth is they really do hate us for who we are .

I agree with you Tom and I have said it for a long time. Remember; those who are not for you are against you. But you could do something to change their opinion but it would take a massive shift in your expansionist foreign policy.

I will say this this though, when I was in Pakistan I found the more reserved dress of the women refreshing

[tomder55]

Clete the last time American policy was expansionist was at the end of the 19th century.
I'll say it again from the post this one originated from... the reason we are attacked is because our culture offers an alternative to the repressive one they offer the people of the ummah.

[paraclete]

Clete the last time American policy was expansionist was at the end of the 19th century.
I'll say it again from the post this one originated from...the reason we are attacked is because our culture offers an alternative to the repressive one they offer the people of the ummah.

Tom I don't think that is why you are attacked. What does the average Muslim know about you? Only how you portray yourselves in film and the fact you intervene in various conflicts. You shout democracy when most of the world hasn't any idea what you are talking about. According to you everything east of Berlin is repressive and undemocratic. I'm surprised you aren't still looking for reds under the bed

I think your idea that american foreign policy isn't expansionist is fantacy. You happily colonised Japan and Korea and you maintain a presence in Europe and the middle east. I know you think all of this is maintaining a balance but these days your expansion is accomplished by trade agreements

[tomder55]

Your rhetoric is inaccurate and propagandist. We will leave all of these nations when asked to ;just like we did in the Philippines and Saudi Arabia . The only space we occupy in Korea ,Europe and Japan is possibly the sites where our soldiers may be buried from defending it.

[NeedKarma]

U.S. Embassy, Baghdad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A new embassy, which has been referred to as Fortress America, opened in January 2009 in the Green Zone in Baghdad.[2] The embassy complex comprises 21 buildings on a 104 acre (42 ha) site, making it the largest and most expensive U.S. embassy in the world.

"A week after submitting his FY2006 budget to Congress, the President sent Congress an FY2005 emergency supplemental funding request. Included in the supplemental is more than $1.3 billion for the embassy in Iraq..." An emergency supplemental appropriation (H.R. 1268/P.L. 109-13), which included $592 million for embassy construction, was signed into law on May 11, 2005.

[tomder55]

U.S. Embassy, Baghdad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So ? Doesn't Canada have embassies all over the world also ?

We are there under a treaty agreement with the elected government of Iraq. When the terms of the treaty expire we will either renegotiate or leave under existing timetables.

Iraq Parliament Approves U.S. Security Pact : NPR

[NeedKarma]

So ? Doesn't Canada have embassies all over the world also ?

We are there under a treaty agreement with the elected government of Iraq. When the terms of the treaty expire we will either renegotiate or leave under existing timetables.

Iraq Parliament Approves U.S. Security Pact : NPR

Dude, $1.3 billion!! Isn't your country under some sort economic strain for the past few years?

American officials project that the embassy will need more than $1.8 billion each year in 2010 and 2011, compared with this year's estimated $1.5 billion budget, according to the inspector general.

[tomder55]

That of course is an unrelated issue ;and I agree the costs for the embassy is unwarranted . Waiting for the CIC to order it scaled back .

But you are not suggesting that having a diplomatic presence is the same as occupation... right ?

[excon]

But you are not suggesting that having a diplomatic presence is the same as occupation ...right ?

Hello tom:

If it looks like the embassy is PERMANENT, it COULD be perceived as occupation. When we're spending billions on ours, it looks pretty PERMANENT to me. I'll bet it looks pretty PERMANENT to the Iraqi's too.

excon

[tomder55]

Perhaps ;but until thre is some other development ;I have to assume that the timetable in the treaty and the President's own stated timeline is the reality .General Odierno has said he plans on adhering to the timeline unless otherwise ordered .
http://www.eagleworldnews.com/2010/0...l-on-schedule/

The same thing would've happened if the Japanese didn't get cold feet about kicking us out of our Okinawa base. We would've packed our bags and gone home... just like we did when the Philippines asked us to leave Subic Bay ;and just like we did when the Saudi's asked us to leave our bases there.

Now the jihadists ;or Clete of course spin our presence there as "occupation " . But I would think an American would understand the distinction.

[NeedKarma]

I get all my political news from there too tom!

Politics Briefs

[tomder55]

Acting as the source monitor again ? Can you dispute the content that I posted ? No.

There are hundreds of collaborative sources if you choose to really check .

Here's collaboration from the Slimes last week you'll approve .
U.S. Withdrawal on Schedule, General Says - At War Blog - NYTimes.com

[NeedKarma]

I just agreed with your source, what's your issue? It's a great place to find out how great republicans are and how nasty democrats are.

[tomder55]

Here's a clue . That became my "source " because when I looked for a confirming link to something I already knew ,it was the 1st one that popped up on GOOGLE .

[paraclete]

The same thing would've happened if the Japanese didn't get cold feet about kicking us out of our Okinawa base. We would've packed our bags and gone home....just like we did when the Phillippines asked us to leave Subic Bay ;and just like we did when the Saudi's asked us to leave our bases there.

Now the jihadists ;or Clete of course spin our presence there as "occupation " . But I would think an American would understand the distinction.

Here is a piece of spin for you Tom. The americans cannot even understand they are not wanted on Okinawa. Not even a japanese PM has enough gumption to tell them to go. What america conquers it doesn't give back easily. So pack your bags because under the circumstances it sure looks like occupation and you left Saudi Arabia because you found a convenient place to park your carcase over the border and you haven't left there yet either

[tomder55]

Lol... more fractured fairey tales. I think the Chinese fleet sailing in Japanese territorial waters is what gave him cold feet.

Asia Times Online :: China News, China Business News, Taiwan and Hong Kong News and Business.

Do the people of Okinawa want us gone ?Yes ;and that is why we made a deal with the old PM to relocate . It was Yukio Hatoyama who renaged on the deal... not the US .

With the exception of perhaps Guantanamo we have the approval of the governments of every nation our troops are stationed .

[paraclete]

l

Do the people of Okinawa want us gone ?Yes ;and that is why we made a deal with the old PM to relocate . .

Fairytale? Moving to the other end of the island is not leaving, who's living in laa laa land now? There is no doubt you are a convenient bully boy for Japan Taiwan and South Korea to have around but one day you will overdo it again as you did when McArthur overshot the mark in North Korea. All it takes is another meglomaniac General with a god complex