[deanalt]

Hello folks,

Here is a thread that has been closed, but you can still view that seems to address a problem similar to mine, a problem no one seems to believe! Please read it.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-t...ays-16304.html

Here's my particulars:
I bought my dad’s not so old car and gave my 1990 Honda Accord LX to my daughter. Also, at that point, the Honda was no longer be parked overnight in the garage. Sometime soon thereafter, when the night-time temp dropped to around 45 degrees (this is LA, so it doesn’t get that cold, but apparently cold enough) or so, we started to see the problem the next morning. After about a 5 minute drive in the morning, we cannot remove the key from the ignition. We can turn it from position II to position I. Then, you are supposed to push the key in a little, allowing it to turn to the off position. When we have this problem, on cold mornings, it will not push in and therefore, we cannot turn it the rest of the way to remove it.

The car is fine after it warms up. If my daughter would just sit in the car for another 5 minutes, then it seems to then allow you to push the key in and complete the rotation but, as you can imagine, she doesn’t want to do that every early morning! Sometimes jiggling the wheel and/or key seems to help but mostly not and, when it does help, I think it is related more to the passage of time as the now-warming car becomes no longer cold.

Everyone tells me it is strictly a mechanical problem but the above thread (please read it), at least for a Honda Civic, suggests there is an electrical component, two solenoids that could be temperature sensitive. Can anyone tell me if this is true for a 1990 Accord also? If so, which solenoid is likely to be temperature sensitive? Is either of the solenoids easy to replace/fix? The problem is absolutely gone when the car is a little warm. Doesn’t it make sense that something like a solenoid would be the likelier cause, rather than something mechanical?

By the time I take the car to any locksmith or mechanic, it is usually warmed up enough that the problem is not there. One locksmith sprayed WD-40 twice and it did not help. Is it too late to use a silicone lubricant now? Is graphite better? I guess this all assumes it is, after all, a mechanical problem, as unlikely as that seems due to the temperature sensitivity issue.

The dealer wants to replace the entire lock assembly, which is about $450 US in parts and labor; too much for this old car and he won’t even guarantee that this will fix the problem. A locksmith started to remove just the lock cylinder itself, but after watching him struggle for 20 minutes, and when he said I’d have to leave the car – he said the screws that hold the cylinder onto a post don’t have heads (perhaps he doesn’t have a wrench that seems to fit it?), so he’d have to tap heads into them (scary) – also, the only replacement cylinder available was $20 from Pep Boys (Honda won’t sell just that) and it seemed to turn with difficulty even brand new – I told him to stop. I was afraid he might not get it back together again. And if this might not really be the problem, what a waste that would be!

I saw some things to try in that thread above, such as jiggling the gear shift. One mechanic said he saw a similar problem where, on the dash board both the park and drive light were lit and that, shifting it back into drive, then park again helped! But I don’t think it was due to temperature. I will try this, if jiggling the automatic gear shift position doesn’t help.

The spare key is a clever potential solution, but my wife insisted we put an alarm system (cheapie) in the car for my daughter and I don’t think the alarm will arm with the key in the acc position, which I think may be this very position roman numeral I, though I don’t have the car right now and the acc position may be a different position, one that is beyond the off position – I don’t recall.

Please help! Thanks so much.

[TxGreaseMonkey]

To me, it sounds like the tolerances in the ignition lock are so close that different temperatures between the key (warm) and the lock (cold) are the cause of the problem. Try a one-time experiment. Have your daughter place her keys in the refrigerator overnight and see if the problem goes away. If it does, try wraping a towel around the lock area overnight to keep it warm.

[deanalt]

You seem to suggest that temperature will affect both the key and lock in the same way, as if they are designed so that, as long as both are at the same temperature, they will work. This seems hard for me to believe. Why do you think that would be true?

Regardless, your suggestion to wrap the area in something that might keep it warmer may work, I suppose. I was hoping for a cleaner long-term solution for my daughter, especially since the ignition hole is in the side of the steering column and you'd probably have to wrap the whole column to keep it covered, unless a appropriately placed, super-glued piece of felt flapping down and covering the lock might do! But given that the lock is metal, maybe that wouldn't help enough.

I really appreciate your input and THANK YOU for any follow up, though I hope others will also chime in.

Dean

[TxGreaseMonkey]

You have what may be an "interference" fit, due to different temperatures. I'm not saying this is the correct explanation of what's going on but it may be. The key and lock tolerances may be so close that they are affected by differing temperatures. It may only take a few thousandths of an inch.

Most cars come with two sets of keys. Try the other set and see what happens or examine the key and see if you can see a wear spot or a spot that is hanging up and slightly dress it with a jeweler's file.

[deanalt]

I forgot to mention this at the outset. One of the first things I tried was a different key. Unfortunately, the different key was made from the older key. However, I recently found the original valet key which was hardly used at all. It had the same problem. That said, I could believe that an old lock may be slightly compromised by virtue of old keys being used, particularly if the old key is too often jiggled, once things got just a little bad.

I understand that the tolerances might be tight and that, if the lock gets cold, it's shape may change slightly, thereby making the key a bad fit. I just don't understand how making the key cold too would likely cause it to change shape in the same way. It's not like they are a matched set at any temperature - a design engineer doesn't assume, if the lock is frigid, the key will be too, so he should design for that. In fact, I bet if I heated up the key (not something I'd ask my daughter to do daily), I'd have a better chance; in that it would quickly warm up the lock! But perhaps my simple mind can't appreciate what you're trying to say.

Do you attach any credibility to the solenoids mentioned for the Honda civic on the original post? It just seems that there is some barrier to pushing the key in when the temperature is cold enough.

Thanks!
Dean

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Personally, I would get a new lock and key and fix it properly. To me, this is not a big, difficult task. This IS the cleaner, long-term solution:

Steering Lock Replacement

1. Disconnect the negative battery cable.
2. Remove dashboard lower cover and knee bolster.
3. Disconnect 5P connector from the under-dash fuse box and the 7P connector from the main wire harness.
4. Remove steering column covers.
5. Remove the column holder mounting bolts and nuts.
6. Lower the steering column assembly.
7. Center punch each of the two shear bolts and drill their heads off with a 3/16 in. drill bit. Be careful not to damage the switch body when removing the shear bolts.
8. Remove the shear bolts from the switch body.
9. Install the new ignition switch without the key inserted.
10. Loosely tighten the new shear bolts.
11. Insert the ignition key and check for proper operation of the steering wheel lock and that the ignition key turns freely.
12. Tighten the shear bolts until the hex heads twist off.

[deanalt]

Thanks so much! Not difficult for you - almost impossible for me (wihtout screwing up)! You did not answer my question about the solenoids, a reply that was within the first URL I originally posted, a thread started by lava surfer having the same problem as me on a 1991 Honda Civic. Can I assume that you are in the it's a mechnical, not electrical, problem camp? If unsure, here is that reply to lavasurfer from augustknight - his answer was applauded by a kenkoh who later reported the same kind of problem. What do you think? Anyone else care to help?

Here's that reply (does anyone know if the shifter he is referring to is manual or auto, and if auto, if the shifter would be on the floor?):

It's one of two possibilities. Either the cable from the shifter has lost some tension and is only working sporadically or the solenoid is defective. I'm leaning toward the solenoid because temperature can affect the delicate switching mechanism and the warmer weather is expanding it enough to make the connection.
Often times soda or coffee is spilled into the shifting housing with can cause a gum up. It is fairly easy to remove the housing, being careful not to FORCE anything. Use a plastic putty knife available in the paint section of your hardware store. This will be more forgiving as you feel out where the clips are. Than look for any obvious foreign materials in the works. Than give it a couple of judicious squirts of WD40 or similar product (not anything oily, that will attract dirt). Each time moving the shifter to allow it to work in and dissolve anything sticky.
If that doesn't have any effect you may want to check the solenoids. One is in the shifter and one is in the steering column. If you don't feel comfortable with troubleshooting your electrical system be warned that you can create a far worse problem if you cook the on board computer. Good luck.

[TxGreaseMonkey]

I'm familiar with the systems and I'm not aware of any relays near the lock mechanism:

. Manual transmissions have a clutch interlock switch that's in circuit to a starter cut relay, affecting power to the starter solenoid (relay) and the main relay. The starter cut relay, however, is located on the left kick panel, near the main relay.

. Automatic transmissions have an A/T position switch (not relay), which is also called a neutral position switch, that controls power to the starter solenoid and main relay.

I don't know where this guy is coming from. Yes, put me squarely in the mechanical camp on this one! Go with the cleaner, long-term solution and replace the lock. Your daughter will thank you for doing the right thing and taking care of her.

[deanalt]

Actually, I have now found another thread with lots more suggesting a solenoid/switch issue, apparently near the gear shift, something designed to make sure the car is in park before the key can be released. Read this thread and let me know what you think, please.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...ed28f2f28439be

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Like I said before, on automatic transmissions there is an Automatic Transmission Gear Position SWITCH, not a relay. Regardless, the clean, long-term solution is to replace the lock. You think you will be able to replace the neutral position switch and not the whole lock assembly--I don't.

Keep me posted with your solution.

[augustknight]

Hi, I'm back. The solenoid guy. From reading the above posts I can pretty much eliminate it as a mechanical problem. The shifter works, scratch that off the list. The key turns the ignition cylinder to all positions except to release. That indicates to me that the mechanics are working fine.
Back in the bad old days, any one with a slide hammer and a screw driver could steal a car. After the ignition is popped out, one simply needed to insert a screwdriver to turn the crank. It was the worst kept secret on the block. When microelectronics came to be inexpensive a second defense was added. The solenoid is a switch, an electronic one.
Since ALL electrical systems are in a circuit, the car key was fitted with a resistor (not a computer chip like most people think). When the key, as a conduit, makes contact with the resistor, a circuit is completed. Works great. Until it doesn't.
The solenoid is prone to defect because it is a bi-metal switch. It can get stuck in the off position because of the different temperatures at which each metal reacts. Some cars have two solenoids, one at the shifter but all will have one (modern cars) at the ignition. 9 times out of 10 it will be at the key and lock device.
This diagnosis is further reinforced by the fact that the key can be removed sometimes. At the magic temperature. A nondefective solenoid will perform well all the time, a defective one will work when the two metals work in consort at an optimal condition. This is not desirable. Would a slack cable be slack sometimes and not slack other times? No, of course not. So, rule out mechanical.
Now, how to fix it is to replace it. There must be a wrecking yard in your area that will have a Honda Civic of that year and I would bet most years in that range would be a suitable replacement. However before you work on a live car, all power must be disrupted. Some of the newer cars will require the air bag system be independently disabled to prevent a deployment.
So, you can get the part cheap but you have to have someone with a passing knowledge of automotive electronics to do the service. This sounds like a problem that would interest the local tech high school auto mechanic teacher might like to use as a teaching tool. Wouldn't hurt to ask. Supply the part, buy coffee and donuts for the boys ( and more and more girls) and they will do it gratis. Good luck.
P.S. Take all that junk off the key chain people, that weighs on the lock mechanism. Use a removable key and place only that in the ignition.

[deanalt]

I got a message form the moderator that some of yesterday's posts got lost and he provided a backup. Here is what I posted:

augustknight, Here is some new info from the is AM's experimentation based on your advice! Someone suggested putting the car back into drive, then back into park, i.e. when the key won't turn. But I noticed that, when I couldn't remove the key, if I restarted the engine, I could not shift it out of park gear. Since it was still a little cold outside, this was a bit scary, leaving me the only option of running the engine and heater in park and asphyxiating myself! Fortunately, the car was close to warm, I soon heard an audible pop, releasing the key, and all was well again! I hadn't noticed the pop before, but I figure that it only happens if you leave it in the locked position - I usually back it off, while waiting, or am too busy jiggling the key to notice. I also notice that the dashboard light for reverse or park does not always seem to come on right away when the car is cold, but if I jiggle the shift lever, it sometimes does. Also, FWIW, twice in the last two years, a dashboard superspeed light has come on blinking, which apparently is its dual function to tell you there is a transmission problem. In each case, the car would go froward only very slowly, as if with little traction and, if I turned the car off and restarted it, it went away - for another 5,00 miles or so. Could this all be related? By the way, are you suggesting the key for an old 1990 car has some sort of resistor in it, or just that it's metallic, so any key copy will work, too. Interesting advice about all the key chains. I assume a plastic alarm thingee is not too heavy! Thanks to both you and txgreasemonkey! Dean

[deanalt]

Also, I found one other person with the problem and got hooked up with this guy who had the same problem and fixed it by cleanign a switch and lubing an area by the transmission lever. He is also the moderator of the forum on cars. Here is his fascinating answer which includes photos and diagrams! It sound slike this is worht trying first - do you agree?

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum....pair&tid=16870

[augustknight]

I followed that link. Which is a detailed version of my original post. The console shifter is prone to malfunction because of spilt coffee, soda or dirt. A simple clean will do the trick.
Let's review.
Key sometimes gets stuck in ignition lock.
Mechanical or electrical?
I think why there is so much contention on this issue is because the lock/shifter/key system employs both elements.
There is a mechanical override at the shifter. Simply depress that and the car will release from park and shift normally. That has to be done every time. Problem solved.
The key will start the car, assume all positions except release. Simply keep the key in the lock. Problem solved.
A pass key can open the doors, truck, glove compartment. Simply use that to lock the car, even with the stuck key in the ignition lock. Problem solved.
The real key will work correctly on occasion, usually when there is a quick temperature change from cold to hot. Problem solved.
Someone looks inside the car, sees the key in the ignition, knows about the override, easily opens the locked door and drives off with the car. Problem solved permanently.
So, in summary, you can live with the key sticking and do an end around, or you can fix it right. Works either way. It is simply a matter of your comfort threshold for security.
The solenoid is an electrical switch. It works in consort with other switches, either mechanical or electrical. That is why so many people have so many answers. But too many answers is an escalation of possibilities. If you work backwards it will still only be a matter of if a switch is on or off.
That's it from me. I am a medical/industrial radiographic technician. Will someone please ask me a question about geometric unsharpness from disfraction so I can answer a question I know something about. Jeez.

[erich1]

Also, I found one other person with the problem and got hooked up with this guy who had the same problem and fixed it by cleanign a switch and lubing an area by the transmission lever. He is also the moderator of the forum on cars. Here is his fascinating answer whihc inlcudes photos and diagrams!! It sound slike this is worht trying first - do you agree?

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum....pair&tid=16870

deanalt,

I was wondering if you even resolved this issue? I have a 1990 Honda Civic that is doing the same thing, stuck in park and can't get the key out when it's cold out. If you figured out the problem can you please post the solution.

Thanks in advance,

Erich <><

[deanalt]

Each time I cleaned the switch, it seemed to get better (less waiting time) but I was starting to do damage to the plastic, etc, and losing patience. However, it gave me the courage to follow another's advice to just replace that white plastic, gear shift switch, which I did. This completely fixed the problem for me. Basically, the old switch was not communicating to the ignition system that the car was in park (when too cold, don't ask me why), which prevents the key release. The part was around $60 though non-refundable if it doesn't work. You could try cleaning it up first - that might do it. If not, you'll know what you need to do to replace it. Once you know how, it's simple, though be careful not to drop the washers and nuts when you take them out as they will drop into never-never land and you may have to walk to the store to get more!

I hope it works for you. Apparently, it worked for a few and seems like the most likely solution.

Dean

[erich1]

Dean,
Thanks for the info, I tried cleaning the shift position switch like you suggested and it seemed to help a little but still not all the time. So ended up going down to the local Honda dealer and ordered a new switch. It'll be here in a few days, cost me $53.

In the mean time I figured out that if I jump two of the wires on the Shift Position Switch it closes the "P" contact and the Park light comes on and I can get the key out. So my temporary fix until the new switch comes in was to solder a wire on each of the wires that needs to be jumped and connect a small momentary/on push button switch to the end of my wires. Looks kind of cheesey for now but it's only for a few days and it works. Thanks again for the help.

Erich

[igot2gonow]

I can’t believe I found someone with the same darn problem I have.

Mine is a 1989 accord dx with auto trans, 132k miles and runs just fine. I live in Denver, so you know it gets cold here. I live less than a mile from work, so I have to drive a few miles out of my way every day to warm the car up. If I don’t, then I have to sit in the parking lot and wait until the car warms up to get the key out. Same thing when I go home. Sometimes I just want to go straight home, but then I have to sit and wait for the car to warm up. Just like you, once the car is warm, no problems.

My problem is the “P” light on the dash will not light up until the car is warm. I can bang on the shifter and in very rare cases the light will come on and I can get the key out. Also, if you put the shifter in park before the engine warms up, the “P” light does not come one and you can't get it out of park.

One thing I have noticed is if the car is not fully warm and by that I mean just driving 1 mile or so and the temp gauge not even moving. I can turn the car off, leave the key in it and run into a store for 3 or 4 minutes. When I start it back up, almost always, the “P” light comes on and I can put it into drive and take off, or take the key out.
In this same scenario, I have tried turning the car off and restarting it after waiting for 1 minute and it’s no go. It has to be several minutes.

I took the console off for a while and then tried wiggling the neutral switch, pushing on it, tapping it and in rare cases the “P” light comes on and I can take the key out. Also, when the engine is cold and you first start it, the “P” light always comes on and you can shift it to drive or turn off the engine and take the key out. However once you put it in drive and then go back to park, you cannot get the shifter out of park.

I want to believe that it is the neutral switch and replacing it will fix the problem, but then there is the heat issue and turning it off for 3-4 minutes when not fully warm and it works. Still, I am going to replace the switch and see what happens.

One thing I have noticed is that when I turn the engine off and the “P” light is not on, I can push the key in and try and turn it and I can hear a solenoid clicking in the dash. Once the “P” light comes on, I can hear another solenoid click under the dash.

Another thing to consider is if it is a heat issue, then why can you start the car when stone cold and the “P” light always comes and you shift to drive and take off every time. However, in my case if you put the shifter in park with the engine running before the engine is warm you cannot get it out of park until warm.

If replacing the neutral switch does not work for me, then I am going to wiring in an bypass button to fix the issue. Not the best solution, but a solution.

Thanks to all that have replied and I will post any results I get.

[TxGreaseMonkey]

Read section Z below:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-t...ics-46563.html

[erich1]

igot2gonow,
The problem you are describing sounds like exactly the same thing I went through with my 90 Civic. Honda must have used the same material for these switch in the late 80's and early 90's. Anyway, on the Civic the switch is called the Shift Position Console Switch and replacing this fixed the problem. I think the contacts were just worn out and making intermittent contact, which was worst when it was cold. As for the clicking of the solenoids that you are talking about, on my Civic there were two solenoids, one at the key switch (on the steering column), this one when activated released the key. The other solenoid was on the console (near the shifter), this allowed you to shift out of Park when the brake pedal was pressed and the shifter was in Park. The problem I found was since the car didn't know it was in Park, due to the bad Shift Position Console Switch, neither of these two solenoids would activate when they should have. I understand how the switch could make a better contact after warming up a little bit, but I'm not sure why waiting several minutes even when cold did the trick. I suspect (and this is only a guess) that some type of charge needed to be built up in order to activate the solenoids and with the faulty contact of the switch enough juice just wasn't getting through. Whatever the case, replacing the switch fixed the problem. You can test out your switch yourself before you go and buy a new one though by jumpering a couple of the wires on the switch first, that's what I did. I found some electrical schematics of the Shift Position Console Switch by hunting through manuals at this website: Honda (UK) - Cars - Owner - Workshop
Oh yea, one more thing, on my Civic the switch is called the Shift Position Console Switch but I've seen it called other things for different models of Hondas.

Go luck to you, hope this helps,

Erich <><