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    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #21

    May 3, 2010, 05:49 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    subtle ? more like absurd ;unless you think the large majority of the American population equate the dangers associated with legalized drugs the equivalent of a pin prick.
    Hello again, tom:

    Then you BELIEVE there is an intrinsic danger in drugs, that is absent from safety pins. Frankly, I find THAT absurd. In fact, I believe your position stems from a MORAL perspective, rather than a legal one. Because if it didn't, you would surly be calling for the prohibition of alcohol. Unless, of course, you believe that illegal drugs are MORE dangerous than alcohol.

    excon

    PS> I believe the American people are dumbed down SHEEP, willing to be scared if somebody tells them to be.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #22

    May 3, 2010, 05:51 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Unlike you, ex, I don't associate everything with "the war on drugs."
    Hello again, Steve:

    Then maybe you better open those right wing baby blues.

    excon
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #23

    May 3, 2010, 06:45 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The war on drugs is poorly named . It is simply law enforcement . If you don't like the laws change them . Funny ;with this wide spread support for making every drug legal you would think it would be easy to changes the laws . Maybe the people of the country think the risk of legalization are greater than the efforts needed to fight the crime.

    This argument about prohibition makes no sense . Tobacco and alcohol are prohibitted for people under the age of 18 . Does that prevent underaged users from illegally getting tobacco and alcohol ? No. Gee ;maybe then we should surrender and place no age limits . No ;everyone would say that is an absurd conclusion.

    Just because a law is difficult to enforce ;it doesn't mean that quid pro quo it is not worth having such a law.
    Tom you completely avoided the question, which was why doesn't the US use its technological and military superiority to solve the problem, if it is good enough to bomb the crap out of a few misquided religious maniacs in Pakistan surely it is just as useful to take out the drug cartels and help their loyal ally in Columbia, Mexico, etc. you want law enforcement, step it up to the next level. If Tobacco and alcohol was produced in Columbia you wouldn't have any problem with outlawing it.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #24

    May 3, 2010, 07:28 AM

    I'm not avoiding the problem.
    Our military actively combats the cartels . That is no secret.
    Catsmine's Avatar
    Catsmine Posts: 3,826, Reputation: 739
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    #25

    May 3, 2010, 09:03 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    PS> I believe the American people are dumbed down SHEEP, willing to be scared if somebody tells them to be.
    Like maybe Randolph Hearst and the most effective propaganda machine ever devised?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #26

    May 3, 2010, 10:08 AM

    Unless, of course, you believe that illegal drugs are MORE dangerous than alcohol.
    They absolutely are . A small percentage of alcohol user's end goal is to become intoxicated. The same cannot be said for drug users .An intoxicating high is the aim of the drug user.

    In fact, I believe your position stems from a MORAL perspective, rather than a legal one.
    Many laws are derived out of a sense of moral responsibility . So that is pretty much an irrelevant point.
    But I'd say it is more a matter of defending America's general welfare ,and the considering both the safety of users and non-users.

    You may make a better argument for marijuana I guess . But you can't tell me the stoned pcb,crack ,crystal meth user is not a danger to more than just themselves.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #27

    May 3, 2010, 10:38 AM

    No more dangerous than drunk drivers are and we know what they can do. When was the last time a stoned PCB,crack ,crystal meth user wiped out a family??

    That doesn't count because its legal??
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #28

    May 3, 2010, 11:00 AM

    You ignore the fact that it is only a small percentage of drinkers who's aim is to get stone cold drunk ;and fewer still who get behind the wheel drunk.

    And of course the obvious flaw in your argument is that the person drunk behind the wheel committed a criminal act. In the case of the driver "wiping out a family " it's homicide.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #29

    May 3, 2010, 11:06 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    You may make a better argument for marijuana I guess . But you can't tell me the stoned pcb,crack ,crystal meth user is not a danger to more than just themselves.
    Hello tom:

    Couple things... In the first place, pcb, crack, meth and all sorts of illegal drugs ARE available in the marketplace, their illegality notwithstanding. The drug war has done NOTHING to abate their availability. Therefore, it's time to try something else.

    Drug warriors lie a lot, so it's difficult to tell WHEN to believe them. But, the fact is, addiction to the drugs you named IS as bad as you think it is. I suggest that MOST addicts know that, and WANT to quit. But without treatment, it AIN'T going to happen. I wonder if you think that addiction to alcohol is LESS ugly.

    Given those facts, it's my view, that if those drugs were legalized and regulated, AND we offered the addict treatment on demand, there would be a NET REDUCTION in drug use. Yes, there are a few who would take it up... But, I suggest that more addicts would quit, than people who would experiment...

    If that were to happen, the danger to society that addicts pose, and I include addiction to alcohol, heroine, pcp, meth, and whatever else you want to include, to be the same...

    That is unless you think that a drunk causes LESS damage to society than other addicts do, and/or you believe that if one takes a hit of cocaine, one is compelled to rob a 7/Eleven. Frankly, I think that's what you believe.

    I also challenge your assertion that most people who drink, don't do it to get buzzed. I believe that's EXACTLY why they drink.

    excon
    Catsmine's Avatar
    Catsmine Posts: 3,826, Reputation: 739
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    #30

    May 3, 2010, 12:45 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post

    Couple things... In the first place, pcb, crack, meth and all sorts of illegal drugs ARE available in the marketplace,
    Most of those were developed because of the drug war. The "designer drugs" are attempts to stay ahead of criminal law and the FDA. By the way, it's PCp. Pcb is a dielectric fluid.

    I also challenge your assertion that most people who drink, don't do it to get buzzed. I believe that's EXACTLY why they drink.
    This one I disagree with. Booze, maybe, but beers and wines simply taste better than the water in lots of places. Historically they're also safer to drink so there's a traditional aspect in there too.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #31

    May 3, 2010, 03:29 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I'm not avoiding the problem.
    Our military actively combats the cartels . That is no secret.
    Really? Is this a secret war? We don't hear reports of how a drone took out this group or that group
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #32

    May 3, 2010, 04:03 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    Then maybe you better open those right wing baby blues.
    My baby blues could use a new pair of glasses. Makes it easier to find the beer I like so I can catch a b... I mean, makes it easier to read those wine labels.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #33

    May 3, 2010, 04:22 PM

    Hillary thinks they just might demand your papers in AZ if you have a New York accent. Last I checked it was legal to be from New York wasn't it?
    Catsmine's Avatar
    Catsmine Posts: 3,826, Reputation: 739
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    #34

    May 3, 2010, 04:56 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Hillary thinks they just might demand your papers in AZ if you have a New York accent. Last I checked it was legal to be from New York wasn't it?
    Legal - yes

    Reasonable suspicion - yes (sarcasm)
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #35

    May 3, 2010, 08:07 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Hillary thinks they just might demand your papers in AZ if you have a New York accent. Last I checked it was legal to be from New York wasn't it?
    I'd better not go there then they might think I'm from the south
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #36

    May 4, 2010, 04:09 AM

    HEY!! Watzup with that ? We don't have no frikin accent in nuyawk!

    Evita has reached her personal peter principle plateau .
    twinkiedooter's Avatar
    twinkiedooter Posts: 12,172, Reputation: 1054
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    #37

    May 4, 2010, 07:22 PM

    Exie, I'm amazed that you would somehow link the Arizona rhubarb with drugs.

    If a person is in a country illegally they are a criminal period. Why can't you wrap your head around that fact?

    No other country in the world permits and condones illegal aliens residing in their country like the USA does on a regular basis. If you were in a European country long after your visa ran out you'd be there illegally and be a criminal subject to arrest and deportation. So what's so different about being in the USA if your visa ran out or you entered the country illegally? You would still be a criminal subject to arrest and deportation.

    Try this baloney in Switzerland or Bosnia or Italy or Germany or Russia or Israel and you will find yourself arrested and detained for YEARS in a deportation camp awaiting enough other Americans to be detained and sent back in order to make it worth their while to spend the money on you and them. Some people have been in these deportation camps for literally years with no recouse to be either freed or mailed back to their original country.

    Drugs are just a byproduct of the illegal alien problem.
    twinkiedooter's Avatar
    twinkiedooter Posts: 12,172, Reputation: 1054
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    #38

    May 4, 2010, 07:31 PM
    Oh, I almost forgot. Why don't you try sneeking into North Korea? You'll be either shot, electrocuted by the electrified fences or blown up or torn up by their razor wire. And if you somehow make it through all that and want to live there illegally, you'll be arrested and detained for who knows how long. You'll be lucky if they give you anything to eat let alone a phone call back to the USA or even deported out of their hell hole prison.
    twinkiedooter's Avatar
    twinkiedooter Posts: 12,172, Reputation: 1054
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    #39

    May 4, 2010, 07:38 PM
    Why not go to Iran and live there illegally and claim your rights there. They will caputure you and declare you are a spy. Regardless of whether you are a spy they will insist that you are. Then what?


    The other countries of this world do NOT put up with illegal aliens living in their country. They don't "hug" illegal aliens and tell them they have "rights". What rights? They are treated as the criminals they are entering the country illegally or overstaying their visas.

    Please name for me a sanctuary city in any other country other than the USA where illegal aliens can commit crimes and go "hide" without fear of arrest or deportation?
    inthebox's Avatar
    inthebox Posts: 787, Reputation: 179
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    #40

    May 5, 2010, 04:55 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello tom:


    Given those facts, it's my view, that if those drugs were legalized and regulated, AND we offered the addict treatment on demand, there would be a NET REDUCTION in drug use. Yes, there are a few who would take it up... But, I suggest that more addicts would quit, than people who would experiment....


    excon
    Legalized drugs, like hydrocodone or oxycodone or alprazolam or ritalin, are also abused. People think that just because they are not illegal, or that you could get them from a doctor or a parent's medicine cabinet, means they are safe to use however one pleases.

    Alcohol is legal and regulated, I doubt that the percentage of people in a population that are addicted has changed since prohibition ended.


    G&P

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