[tomder55]

When Mt St Helen went up ,the skys around it were grounded ;but that didn't mean that all the sky in the Western US was shut down.

[NeedKarma]

When Mt St Helen went up ,the skys around it were grounded ;but that didn't mean that all the sky in the Western US was shut down.

Different winds, different geographical area, totally different use of that area for flight routes.

[tomder55]

Yeah I know... Alaska Air routinely flys near volcanic activity . Their pilots are well versed in what can an can't be attempted . The whole region is never shut down like the EU did .

[NeedKarma]

Alaska Air routinely flys near volcanic activity .

I'd like to see proof that a commercial jet flew through ash.

[tomder55]

I said near . I did not say through . There was no reason to close the whole region down . They were able to plot the ash cloud and model the direction it went. Alaska Air I believe stays about 30 miles away from the direct ash clouds they routinely encounter .

The Der Speigel article says it did not even go that high in the sky.

[Curlyben]

yeah I know ...Alaska Air routinely flys near volcanic activity . Their pilots are well versed in what can an can't be attempted . The whole region is never shut down like the EU did .

BUT and it's a big BUT Alaska airspace is way quieter than European.
While this was a major PITA for all involved, with the number of different countries and associated governments I honestly believe that erring on the side of caution, was the correct action to take.
I wonder how America would have reacted to the same circumstances ?
Mt St Helens did spread as far or as fast as this one (yes I'm not even going to try and spell it).

The main worry now is the neighbouring system of Katla that has a tendency of firing off shortly after this one goes. History shows that it erupts every century and the last recorded was 1918, so we are due.

[tomder55]

Turns out the ash cloud was the imagination of computer models .

Britain's airspace was closed under false pretences, with satellite images revealing there was no doomsday volcanic ash cloud over the entire country.

However, new evidence shows there was no all-encompassing cloud and, where dust was present, it was often so thin that it posed no risk...

The satellite images demonstrate that the skies were largely clear, which will not surprise the millions who enjoyed the fine, hot weather during the flight ban...

Evidence has emerged that the maximum density of the ash was only about one 20th of the limit that scientists, the Government, and aircraft and engine manufacturers have now decided is safe.
British Airways chief Willie Walsh always insisted the total shutdown went too far.
'My personal belief is that we could have safely continued operating for a period,' he said.

Remember that ash cloud? It didn't exist, says new evidence | Mail Online

I wonder if these UK Met models were designed by the same folks that designed East Anglia and the IPCC's models for AGW ?

One of these days some doomsday alarmists who isn't a chicken -little will get it right . But no one will pay attention to them .

[Curlyben]

Sorry to say Tom, but not everything The Mail writes can be trusted.

Admittedly if even ONE plane had problems, or worse crashed, due to this issue the outcry would have been far worse then what they actually did do.

[NeedKarma]

I guess it depends on who you ask:
Volcanic ash cloud: Pilots warn against 'rash' decisions to allow flights | World news | guardian.co.uk

European airline pilots warned governments and safety regulators today against making "rash" decisions to allow planes to fly through volcanic ash clouds amid growing pressure from airlines across Europe to create "safe flying corridors" to get flights moving again.

The Daily Mail is a trash rag, never use it as a definitive source. What do you think about this?
Iceland volcano: RAF suspends Typhoon flight training as ash found in engine | Mail Online

The military suspended training flights after the Typhoon pilots noticed a sudden and dramatic loss of power in their engines.

Returning to RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire after an exercise, they encountered ash at 30,000 feet - just below the cruising altitude of civilian jets.

'The ash was so thick in one of the aircraft that it was literally scooped up and put in a plastic container,' said a source at the Ministry of Defence.

[NeedKarma]

Sorry to say Tom, but not everything The Mail writes can be trusted.

Haha, you beat me to it!

[tomder55]

not everything The Mail writes can be trusted.

Sort of like the NY Slimes.

[NeedKarma]

sorta like the NY Slimes.

Yet you use it often as a source. :rolleyes:

[speechlesstx]

Speaking of doomsday alarmists, all I know is it's been awfully cold in Texas for spring and a little global warming would be nice. And for the 4th year in a row, another alarmist had to be rescued trying to show us how warm the arctic is becoming.

[tomder55]

Yet you use it often as a source. :rolleyes:

That's because there a people on this site that tell me which sources should be sourced and which ones are unreliable . I just try to accommodate . The Slimes is not that difficult to repudiate ;and since it is the self proclaimed "paper of record" I don't have to constantly have these discussions about approved sources that I should use.

[Curlyben]

Tom for more reliable UK sources you are better off with these:
The Independent | News | UK and Worldwide News | Newspaper
Telegraph.co.uk: news, business, sport, the Daily Telegraph newspaper, Sunday Telegraph - Telegraph
And
Times Online | News and Views from The Times and Sunday Times

These are what used to be known as the Broad sheets and they offer way better reporting that the tabloids, such as The mail.

[tomder55]

OK I'll go with one of the approved sources which essentially mirror's the Mail story

Volcano crisis: Sense vanishes in a puff of ash - Telegraph

Both were made much worse by over-reliance on an inadequate computer model, which ended up causing unnecessary chaos and misery for hundreds of thousands of people and costing not millions but billions of pounds...

What turned that shower of abrasive volcanic dust from a drama into a crisis was the central flaw in a new international system for responding to such incidents, which was put in place only last September. As everyone now recognises, the emptying of the skies which plunged Europe's airlines into chaos was a grotesque overreaction to the reality of the risks involved.

How is that different from the Mail account ?

[NeedKarma]

Now it falls on who do you want to believe. The pilots? Or the other Daily Mail story that says that their fighter jets also crashed due to the ash?

[speechlesstx]

I don't see any Daily Mail story that says "fighter jets also crashed due to the ash." Where'd you make that up from?

Regardless of who wins the blame game, it seems undisputed that the grounding was based on computer models. It was guesswork, just like climate change.

[Curlyben]

Here you go, second piece:
Not crashed but potentially very close.

I guess it depends on who you ask:
Volcanic ash cloud: Pilots warn against 'rash' decisions to allow flights | World news | guardian.co.uk

European airline pilots warned governments and safety regulators today against making "rash" decisions to allow planes to fly through volcanic ash clouds amid growing pressure from airlines across Europe to create "safe flying corridors" to get flights moving again.

The Daily Mail is a trash rag, never use it as a definitive source. What do you think about this?
Iceland volcano: RAF suspends Typhoon flight training as ash found in engine | Mail Online

The military suspended training flights after the Typhoon pilots noticed a sudden and dramatic loss of power in their engines.

Returning to RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire after an exercise, they encountered ash at 30,000 feet - just below the cruising altitude of civilian jets.

'The ash was so thick in one of the aircraft that it was literally scooped up and put in a plastic container,' said a source at the Ministry of Defence.

[NeedKarma]

Mistype by me, meant to write "almost" instead of "also".

The grounding was based on satellite radar by the way.
BBC News - Satellite views of Iceland volcano
Met Office: Iceland Volcano satellite imagery