[donf]

To all,

My current "Honey Do" is to upgrade from AL to CU cabling. I hit a wall when I pulled the main panel door. Attached is a picture of the installed panel. All labels are eaten or scratched/rotted away. I believe that Noah had installed a similar panel on his Arc before the rain storm.

Anyway, appended below is a photo of the panel. At the top you can see the POCO cable. I think I found Main breakers about midway down the stack. There are four breakers, two for each bus bar. Toward the back right you can see a part of a schematic for this panel.

If anyone can send me a link to this particular panel, I would appreciate it.

[tkrussell]

ITE is long gone, that panel is obsolete, and cutsheets no longer available.

You have the wiring diagram inside. What more do you need?

Since the POCO lines are at the Main Lugs at the top, I would expect to find a Main Breaker elsewhere, typically at the meter.

I would not expect the breakers in the center to be the Main for that panel, wires too small, assuming the large wires at the top are the Main input into this panel.

[donf]

I did check outside, but did not find any disconnecting means outside. There is only the meter, no disconnect switch. The Phase conductors seem to connect directly to the Lugs at the top of the panel.

I did find two conductors connected to the Neutral cable that run under the panel board and bring "Neutral to the Neutral Bus Bars at thye bottom of the panelboard.

I have a partial wiring diagram. The right side of the sheet is gone. There is an UL listed tag on the frame, I'll try to get the number off that. Maybe UL will still have a schematic on the panel in their archives. I really don't want to take the panel apart if I can avoid it.

[tkrussell]

No Main? That's not good.

If for some reason those two breakers are the Main, turn them off, and note the results.

[Stratmando]

Donf, Those middle 2 breakers could be for a sub panel, wall AC or something, what is the size breaker on those 2, Turn off and see what you lose,
If the Buss is OK, you can still get good breakers that work on that panel(Crousse Hinds for example).
Seems OK, plus you have spaces.

[KISS]

How about water heater and stove for those breakers?

Can you read the amperage?

I seriously doubt that they are the main breakers.

[KISS]

Have you thought about the other two methods for dealing with Aluminim wire rather than replacement. One is a crimp method that has to be done prefessionally that adds a copper pigtail.

The other is a basically an insulated barrier screw terminal with goop to add the pigtail. Only installation tool required is a torque screwdriver/wrench. I did get a sample.

[donf]

Yes, I have thought about the other options. The COPALUM connectors and the Antioxidant paste.

However, I may have to bite the bullet and change the panel. The two double pole breakers have 60 amp ratings. I have accounted for the Heat (60 amp) and AC (also 60 amp). The dryer is a 30 amp breaker. Right there I have reason to believe that my service is greater than 60 amps. There are at least 6, DPDT breakers in this panel.

One thing I just proved out is that the home originally had Radiant Ceiling Heat for the original 3 bedrooms, Dining Room, Living Room, Kitchen and Den.

Sometime in the past, the radiant heat was disconnected and the breakers were removed. An attic Heat/Cool unit was installed and subsequently it was disconnected and a new unit replaced the original unit. Also, a fourth bedroom was added by creating an "L" shaped appendage off the back, right rear of the home that contains the new master bath and new master bedroom.

If those two breakers are in fact the Main Breakers, then it is telling me that the home only has 60 amp service. Since the home was built anywhere from the early to mid 1970's then the possibility is that the home is starving for amperage and should go to at least 100 amp or just bite the bullet for 200 amp. The service is delivered via lateral connections and there is a rather large transformer or switch in the back yard of my neighbor's home.

My current plan is to call the POCO and see what the service drop amperage to our home is and determine if the Service Disconnect is external to the home and I just missed it.

[KISS]

Don:

Here is a method you may not know about: AlumiConn The sample product looks very good.

My current plan is to call the POCO and see what the service drop amperage to our home is and determine if the Service Disconnect is external to the home and I just missed it.

Once you have to dig, the cost isn't much for going from 100A to 200 A. The POCO may have to increase their capacity too.

You can't make a resonable dicision without knowing what you have and the cost.

I THINK, not sure, you could back feed say a 200 A panel with a 100 A breaker providing the breaker is retained with clips. You could check into this option as well. Changing the main here is also a possibility.

If the disconnect/breaker is outside (nice way to do something) then it determines your service and the inside panel can be 200 A regardless.

It might make sense to just upgrade to 200 A and forget about it, but it looks like the panel has to go.

Really, the main advantage of the 200 A panel is the number of spaces. Then you may be able to do the feeder underground at a later date.

The underground feeder could be in conduit too, thus you could check on that too. You can always do a load calc to see what panel you need, right?



Torque is 10-15 inch lbs for #10/#12 Aluminum.

[donf]

Okay, I now have a fairly good idea about the panel. I was able to piece together the scraps of the schematic. According to the legend on the panel tag it is a 150 Panel board. The Service Feed Conductors are 2/0 AL.

According to the info on the tag "EQ-P" breakers can be used in all positions. "EQ-T" breakers can only be used in positions 7 through 18 and positions 22 through 30. These breakers are DPST breakers.

Lug "A" feeds breakers 1-2-3-4- and the left side "LTG" Main Breaker tandem arrangement. These are 60 Amp breakers that in turn feed breakers 5 through 18.

The "B" lugs feeds 3 unnumbered breakers including another set of 60 Amp tandem breaker set. These LTG Main Breakers feed breakers 19 through 30.

Neutral connects to two Neutral Blocks at the bottom of the of the panel. EGC connects to a third block and there is a bonding screw.

So, it appears to me, that this is a MLO panel (haven't found the cut-off yet) that is split into 3 sections.

[tkrussell]

So, exactly what are the Main Breakers?

Once it or they are identified, LABEL THEM.

A split bus panel? Why?

What is the purpose of the #2/0 conductors at the top, that I would assume are the input?

[donf]

TK,

1) This panel board is split into three sections.

2) Split bus, because that's what they used? I have no idea, I just purchased this place in July of 2009.

3) The 2/0 cables are delivering 120/240 @120 amps (80% of the listed load of 150 amps) to the panelboard home. Verified with the POCO this morning.

Section 1 is connects the MLO lugs to the "A" and "B" bus bars.

Sections 2 and 3 are fed from the "LTG Main Breakers" at the bottom of the first section. (circled in Red on the photo)

The left "LTG" Main Breaker tandem feeds section two. The right "LTG" Main Breaker feeds the third section of the panelboard.

[donf]

Courtsey of Simens Corp. here is the catalog and schematic of the panelboard.

[Stratmando]

Drawing makes a lot of sense now, and is as you describe(2 double breakers feeding the middle and bottom section).
That's a Strange one, sure makes you use extra breakers.
Do the wires on the 2 Breakers connect to lugs at the bottom of the panel, or do they exit the Panel, can't tell?

[tkrussell]

Well done on the datasheet, I tried a bit, but had no luck.

What a wacky panel.

I just don't see those breakers feeding the sub-sections of the panel, must be because of the photo.

Well, so are you planning on changing this panel out to something more conventional?

I cannot understand the reasoning behind a 3 section split bus panel.

I am sure there was some reason.

[donf]

My thought on the design of the panel is that it is really targeted as a subpanel MLO.

Section 1 is for six or less breakers. Sections 2 & 3 are add on sections, if needed.

Anyway, that's my best guess.

I'm seriously thinking of going to a 200 amp panel and using 150 Amp Main Breakers.

If the cost is not too bad, I may go to a 200 amp feed, but it's a service lateral.

[donf]

As of this moment, I would like to go to a 120/240 - 200 Amp panel.

Use a full load of 150 amps to keep from paying for the upgrade to 200 amps.

I looked at both Lowe's and Home Depot Electrical Distribution Centers and I am very underwhelmed.

Since I'm looking for quality first, then safety as inexpensive as I can get it and Home-line does not look like the best made I've see, I'm open to suggestions.

How about, Siemens, Square D or any other quality mfrs.

Cost is an issue but not a deal breaker.

[Rover88]

Don,
For what it's worth, I looked at both Siemens and Square D when I did a total re-wire on my 85-year-old place a couple of years ago. I forget the price differential, but Square D was the more expensive. In my case, I was upgrading from 100 amp to 200 amp, plus adding a 100 amp sub panel in the attic (to make the total re-wire more workable). I've been happy with Siemens.
Bill

[tkrussell]

Your overwhelmed? Electricians need to know every product you see there, plus what else they don't sell. That's why our eyes are glazed over, if not by mind altering substances.


My opinion is they, Sq D, GE, Siemens, Murray (Murray is made by Siemens) are all of the same quality.

I would have to say that Square D QO line is a c-hair above the rest due to their unique plug on method. My opinion and experience.

You can, have no choice due to that lateral, get a 40 circuit 200 amp main lug only panel and a 150 amp main breaker kit. Anything 150 amp rated is a bit more costly, due to being so unpopular, at least in this area.

A technicality, but sometimes works, and only to be used by qualified electricians, service entrances conductors only need to be sized to handle the calculated service rating load, and can be smaller than the service disconnecting means. Need an accurate load calc done to size and document to use a smaller wire.

Have the utility check the wire size and compare to their requirements. Oft times they use reduced sizes for shorter runs. Longshot, but worth asking.

One way ot the other you may be able to get a 200 amp service.

Any chance on getting a photo of the interior with all breakers unplugged?

Longshot, but worth asking. LOL.


Of course, I really need to remind you, that since there is no MAIN, all bus will BE LIVE.

Working on live panels require special protective gear to prevent injury.

By he way, you all may be interested, do all of the electricians here realize that the proper PPE used while working on live gear will many times only LESSEN THE INJURY!

So, working on live gear has a good chance of injury, just not as bad if unprotected. Instead of third degree burns, you may just get light one degree burns.

The concussion blast will still be the same. If powerful enough, you can have a seat on your a$$.

Perhaps this is not a good idea. I can wait until the panel gets removed.


I will close by saying, every time you think you seen it all in this trade, wait for tomorrow.

[KISS]

I think I'm going to name this panel "Swiss Cheese" because it has lots of discontinuities.

Don.

Do you know anything about the bonding? Ground rods and utility grounds? What do you have to do there?

Where is your new main going to go? In the new panel or outside? Does the POCO or county have a requirement that disconnects have to be outside because of fire issues or any other reason?