[donf]

TK,

I would not plan on swapping out the panel with the conductors live. There has to be a Service Disconnect somewhere. With all the junk Verizon hung on the wall adjacent to the meter, I just did not see it.

If I have to, I'll get the POCO to show me the disconnect switch.

TK, - My thinking on the use of the 200 amp panel is to have the new panel in place in case we ever decide to go to 200 amp service.

Right now, If I go with a full rated service amperage of 150 amps, I do not have to change the service entry conductors. By the way, all three conductors are 2/0 AL. Nor will I have to change the ground rod. I believe that the panel is grounded to the cold water pipe that feeds the hot water heater about 15 feet from the panel.

I got to do some more discovery work and get the permit before I actually start the work.

[tkrussell]

No Don, I was not suggesting that you change out the panel live, I had asked if you can unplug the breakers and take a photo of the split busbar.

Odd that you cannot see, or know, where the main disconnect is.

[Stratmando]

Donf, Can you tell us where the wires from those 2 breakers go?
1) Lugs on the bottom of the Panel, or
2)Exit the panel in conduit?

Thanks

[donf]

Strat,

The wires from the Left tandem breakers feed the bottom (3) segment of the panel board.

The breakers on the Right feed the center (2) segment.

Here is the schematic:

[Stratmando]

The schematic is great, BUT, But where do the connect to, Do they leave the Panel in Conduits, or do they hook onto lugs at the bottom of the panel.
The schematic does not show where the wire from the 2 breakers go.
Diagram does NOT show and photo does not show either.

[donf]

Strat,

Service lines enter and connect at the top of the panel board.

The Phase Bus Bars are physically split between section 1 and 2; and 2 and 3.

The two 240 VAC/60 Amp Breakers connect to bottom of Section 1.

The conductors from the left 60 amp breaker feed section 2. The conductors from the right breaker feed section 3.

Neither set of conductors leave the panel.

While I was baby sitting, I put together a colorized sketch to see if that helps.

[tkrussell]

See, the thing is Don, what I and Strat just don't see is the wires coming off those "Main Breakers" connecting to lugs for the lower sections of the panel, we see the wires heading to the bottom of the panel, as if they were leaving the panel.

[Stratmando]

We can see where the blue wires come off the 2 pole breaker and where the green wires come off a 2 pole breaker, we Cannot see where thy tie in, the schematic shows tied directly to the Buss, but the wires go to the bottom to some where? Are their 4 lugs that the wire off the 2 breakers go to.

[donf]

I'm sorry, the wires come down their respective sides and loop up and under the Bus Plates to connect to their designated sections.

They do not exit the cabinet.

[Stratmando]

I understand they don't leave the panel.
They are welded? To the Buss? Or Lugs?

[donf]

Okay,

Here are some enlarged segments of the Service Entry, Breakers and Sections 2 & 3 feeder wires.

[donf]

Strat,

Given that the family Easter Celebration is at our home this weekend, I flat out do not have the courage to tell my Lady that I want to shut the power down so that I can get a look at the physical connection points.

The Lady is already ticked that I'm taking off from helping her clean and cook to umpire HS Girls Fastpitch Softball Games.

[Stratmando]

Donf, I see the Blue and Green Wiring, They come from the two center breakers, can you fininsh painting them so we can see where they attach, Looks like they disappear in the wires at the bottom, You probably can see very clear is why you wonder why we are asking. If you were to continue painting blue and green where would you end up(4 lugs? or 4 wires coming from the bottom of the BUSS)? Or How?
I wish I could word this Better.
How are they connected to the bottom of the Buss?

[Stratmando]

Don't worry about it, originallally it was supposed to be a quick question, not that important. Its just wires from a breaker don't usually go into some unknown void? Don't worry about it? Take Care

[donf]

Strat,

I'm not worried, I am fearing spousal retribution if I push the gal any more. After all, Bon is Scottish/Italian, comes from NYC vicinity and the Lady was a Marine.

I'm just NYC Irish and I chose the Navy. I don't normally push issues, it's not like I'm going to win many and come out on top.

Actually, I am really intrigued by this panel mainly because I've never see a design like this one.

Another piece of info. Under the Neutral lug, there are two additional wires that service the Neutral Connection points one for each additional section. These wires also run under the panel segments. All of the segment plates are mounted to standoffs which hold the plates about a 1/2" off the back of the cabinet surface.

Its fairly dry today, so I'm heading out to the backyard to see if I can get a pic of the service disconnect. I suspect that it is inside the Meter cabinet.

[Stratmando]

So, you can't see where they attach too? I not curious about the disconnect or the neutral, I am curious how They attach.
Can you help me understand this.
Can some else rephrase my question for me, I am not doing a good job.

[tkrussell]

Strat, I am having the same problem, so just fly up from the Keys and drop in and check it out.

[donf]

Hey guys, I'm in favor of that!

I do have more information. Simens sent me the entire PDF of the catalog description. And I took some better pics this morning.

According to page 2 of the appended PDF, there is an area for pass through lugs.

I also realized the import of this split bus design.

We have been having lights dim and brighten exactly like a loose Neutral. However, the Neutral lug is tight. Obviously, this was not a new problem because you can see that the main lugs are chewed up from putting torque on them to tighten them up.

But those lugs only affect the top section of breakers.

The Neutral connection is wire fed to the other two sections. Either one of those can be loose. "Dirty words!"

On the plus side, it also means that I can down the breakers that feed the other sections without killing the entire house and get the breakers out and tighten the Neutrals and inspect the Pass through lugs.

[KISS]

Don:

Not that the pic is bad, but the next time you have to take a pic of something close up with a flash diffuse the flash through a piece of paper.

Looks like this panel is a new experience for all.

BTW: Happy Easter to all.

[donf]

First, there is no single service disconnect for this panelboard. According to the POCO, because section 1 qualifies as 6 or less switches no single disconnect is required. Makes perfect sense to me, at least now.

Well my simplistic plan just took a very serious kick in the butt.

I was talking with the POCO designer for my area. They will not upgrade from a 120 A feed to a 150 Amp feed. They will only go to 200 Amp. Sounds do-able to me.

There is no needed change to the line side transformer feeders since they are already 4/0 AL. POCO will require a meter base change because the existing base is over 10 years old. The base and a blue book are supplied at no charge.

However, if POCO disconnects so the work can be accomplished, then they cannot re-connect until they have the Permit and Final Inspection in hand.

The work-around is to pull the permit. Submit a request for a POCO work order. Pull the meter and then work on the base replacement with the line side hot.

Now I have never pulled a meter or worked on the line side of the wall.

What would have to happen is to pull the meter, change the service entry cable to 4/0 AL (less than 2') connect to the load side of the meter base and then to the new panel and then re-install the meter and cover.

TK - What PPE equipment would I need? If I decide to give this a whack. That decision is pending.

Also, what do I use to temporarily route power to the home while the work is being done.