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IS the "Church" the same as the "Roman Catholic Church"?
There are many who claim that Peter was given authority directly by Jesus Christ and that Peter established the Church. The claim is also that that Church is the Roman Catholic Church and the same the Bride of Christ. Is this True?
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Depends on your prospective. And whether you believe the Bible or some other book. |
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 Originally Posted by inhisservice
Originally Posted by inhisservice
Based on the tone of the question I'm guessing you are a scripture-only Christian. By this I mean that the bible is considered the sole rule of faith. I don't limit myself to 'bible-only', but I'll try as best I can to somehow relate my response to scripture in deference to your tradition. If you reference authors outside the bible please cite the source. It would be helpful if you would cite an internet source so I can look it up. Context can be very important so that we don't, as it were, speak past each other. I've posted this before, and I'll post it again here as a start to answering your last question; “is the Roman Catholic Church and the same the Bride of Christ”. Catholics hold that 'The Bride of Christ' is a metaphor of the union of Christ with His Church, i.e. The Mystical Body of Christ. This is similar to a marriage union between a man and his bride. The children from this mystical union are the faithful. Scripture gives us a vivid image of a bridegroom coming to claim and marry his bride in multiple ways. The following verses are examples: The Bride of Christ Apocalypse 21:9-10: And there came one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying: Come, and I will shew thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb. And he took me up in spirit to a great and high mountain: and he shewed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, Ephesians 5:22-33: Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband. 1 Corinthians 12:12-14: For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. For the body also is not one member, but many. One Body, i.e. the Roman Catholic Church. Matthew 9:15: And Jesus said to them: Can the children of the bridegroom mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then they shall fast. Children of the Bridgroom are the faithful Mark 2:19: And Jesus saith to them: Can the children of the marriage fast, as long as the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. John: 3:26-30: And they came to John, and said to him: Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou gavest testimony, behold he baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered, and said: A man cannot receive any thing, unless it be given him from heaven. You yourselves do bear me witness, that I said, I am not Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, who standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth with joy because of the bridegroom's voice. This my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease. The friend of the bridegroom is John (all emphasis is mine.) JoeT |
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I want to read what more people have to say abour this. |
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Didn't we just do this same question? |
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Originally Posted by DG
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Might as well recycle the other thread and all the negative posts. |
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Originally Posted by 450donn
JoeT P.S. In all seriousness, I haven't done it, but I wonder if you went back and looked at that other thread, how many actually submitted a post that attempted to answer the question? How many were constructive in terms of the OP? |
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inhisservice,
To answer your question directly, Yes, so the Holy Bible indicates. Peace and kindness, Fred |
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JoeT777 Yes I am a "Bible only" Christian. I believe contains the truth and I also believe that anything against or contradictory to the truth is false. Now lets come to the subject. I would like to remind here that our discussion hear is weather the Roman Catholic Church is The Bride. It is not weather the Lamb has a Bride or not. I agree that the Bible says that The Church is The Bride. But is that Church the same as the Roman Catholic Church? That is our discussion. Keeping that in mind let us look at the verses that you have quoted. 1. You quoted Rev. 21:9-10. This verse says that the Lamb has a Bride. I agree with this. 2. Next you quoted Ephesians 5:22-33. These verses tell us that the Bride is the Church. I agree to this also. 3. Then you quoted 1 Corinthians 12:12-14. The verse says that we are all the body and Christ is the Head. I agree. But this verse also says For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body... This means that whoever is Baptized in the Spirit is a part of the body (The Church). You could only say that Body is the RC if you under the belief that those who are not baptized into the RC are not Baptized in the Spirit. That would be a wrong assumption. Because there are many people who have been baptized and on whom God has shown his approval by blessing those people with various blessings. In fact the Bible never says that St.Peter ever organized any church nor are there any indication that St.Peter was the head of any such institution. He had his ministry and St.Paul had his ministry. St.John had his ministry and so did St.Thomas. Each had their own ministry and it is never stated that they were under St.Peter's rule or he headed them. It is agreed that St.Peter was and an elder. In fact from what St.Paul says in Gal 2:9 we can understand that St.Peter, St.John and St.James (not the brother of St.John) were (actually "seemed to be") the pillars of the Church. So that was the position of St. Peter - one among the three pillars. In short you have not provided any verse that support you claim yet. |
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inhisservice, The bible and authentic history point directly to the fact that Peter was appointed by Jesus to be the Leader of His Church. All of Jesus' apostles and disciples were members of That Church. Not only that but Jesus made Peter the Prime Minister of His Church and earthly Kingdom by giving Peter the keys to heaven. The book of Acts tells all that Peter was acknowledged to be the leader of The Church and that Peter went to Rome and therefore established The Church headquarters there. Historic documents show that is just what he did. Note this... "And Simon Peter answered and said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' Jesus answered and said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." - Matt. 16:16-18. It is perfectly clear that Jesus was talking to and about Peter. Peace and kindness, Fred |
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As usual Fred you have/are taking one part totally our of context. The word Peter "Petros" means small stone. Jesus uses a play on words here with petra, which means a foundation boulder. Since the NT makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the FOUNDATION and head of the church. It is a mistake to assume there here he is giving either of those roles to Peter. JN 1:24, AC4:11-12,1CO 3:11,EPH 5:23 |
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Originally Posted by inhisservice
You might be partially right if it were to end at verse 14, except that it doesn't end there. Paul continues explaining just what the 'body of Christ' consists of: “Now you are the body of Christ and members of member. And God indeed has set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors? Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But be zealous for the better gifts. And I show unto you yet a more excellent way” (1 Cor 12:27-31) In this we see among other things an organization, a corporate body. FIRST the Apostle, SECOND prophet, THIRD interpretations of speeches, i.e. doctors. This is 'CHURCH.' And this Church is of ONE spirit, which is a unified society (family) of beliefs and tenets. This body is held together so tightly that “if one member [of the Body of Christ] suffer anything, all the members suffer with it: or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.“ "And he[Christ] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may hold the primacy.” (Col 1:18.) And we see that the Head yet lives even though Christ no longer walks among us – he decreeds that His Body rule in its's place. “Let no man seduce you, willing in humility and religion of angels, walking in the things which he has not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh: If then you be dead with Christ from the elements of this world, why do you yet decree as though living in the world?” (Col 2:18-20). And all things, not some, not just our faith, not just our secular governments, not just the natural world, not just the spiritual world, but all things are subject to Him; “And he has subjected all things under his feet and has made him head over all the church, 23 which is his body and the fullness of him who is filled all in all. “ (Eph 1:22-23). An Ecclesial body like the body that contained the inherited seat of Moses, beyond the Sanhedrin, one that included the entire body of believers not just Jews; “That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs and of the same body: and copartners of his promise in Christ Jesus, by the gospel (Eph. 3:9). This is to last forever (Eph 4:13). This body includes the Church Militant, those of us here on earth, the Church Suffering , the souls in Purgatory, and the Church Triumphant , those who have received their glory in Heaven; one wholeness with Christ (1 Cor 12:12). I'm sure the metaphor is complete the Body of Christ is the Church, the Church of that day is the Church we call the Roman Catholic Church today. I stated that you 'might be partially right,' that was an error. One can't divide an absolute into parcels of partial absolutes - it no longer is the absolute thing that it was, likewise you can't divide an absolute truth – so you can never be partially right. There is but ONE true Church constituted by Jesus Christ This supports the claim of the Roman Catholic, not my claim. I wouldn't be bold enough to make such a claim, I'm a pew warmer. We don't 'priest' unto ourselves.
In fact the Bible never says that St.Peter ever organized any church nor are there any indication that St.Peter was the head of any such institution. He had his ministry and St.Paul had his ministry. St.John had his ministry and so did St.Thomas. Each had their own ministry and it is never stated that they were under St.Peter's rule or he headed them. It is agreed that St.Peter was and an elder. In fact from what St.Paul says in Gal 2:9 we can understand that St.Peter, St.John and St.James (not the brother of St.John) were (actually "seemed to be") the pillars of the Church. So that was the position of St. Peter - one among the three pillars.
So, different people with different jobs can't be contained within the same organization? How many churches do you reckon Christ started? Did they include Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, and Evangelist? Or where they called something else? How many ONE's do you think Christ was thinking of when he said ”And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. That they all may be one, as you, Father, in me, and I in you; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.” (John 17:20-23) And how many ONEness's do you think Paul was referring to when he said ” Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body and one Spirit: as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.” Maybe this is any'ol ONE or all of the Someone's, maybe EVERYBODYs? Let's see, I run an office of a large number of people, a company you might say. I've divided some of the work load among various different people, when I refer to them, they are 'THE COMPANY' not the file clerk, the project manager, the accountant. They are all of the same 'company spirit' – at least they better be! What you're proposing is [an 'office' of 12 independent men each with a different company who work for themselves, not me, i.e. a pillar unto themselves]. So, you can build twelve houses each with a single pillar? I can't. The Holy Architect built ONE house with 12 pillars. JoeT |
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450donn, Sorry, but Jesus spoke in Aramaic and there is NO little stone word in that language. Both Jesus and Peter are referred to as a rock in Holy Scripture. And Peter means rock not pebble. That's the way it is even though some folks refuse to accept the truth. Peace and kindness, Fred |
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You read Aramaric? According to Wikipedia the correct meaning is: Peter is a common masculine given name. It is derived, via Latin "petra", from the Greek word πετρος (petros) meaning "stone" or "rock".[1] According to the New Testament, Jesus gave Saint Peter (whose given name was Simon) the name Kephas or Cephas meaning "stone" in Aramaic.[2] So Fred, will you admit you are wrong yet again? |
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Originally Posted by 450donn
“In regard to the Petros Kepha argument made by some, “the play of words involved in naming Simon “Rock” is as clear in Aramaic as in English, if we use the literal translation “Rock” for the Aramaic Kepha rather than “Peter” which is derived from the Greek Petros. In Greek the noun for rock is feminine. Therefore it is unsuitable for a man's name, and Peter is named Petros while the precise word for rock is petra, making the meaning a little less clear. But Christ's words to Peter were spoken in Aramaic and first recorded in Armaic in Matthew's Gospel; furthermore, we know that Peter was later often called Kepha or Cephas as well as Petros.” “Warren H. Carroll, A History of Christendom Vol 1, 1985, pg 349 footnote 135. JoeT |
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450donn, Sorry, I was right. Stone and rock are the same thing, not a pebble. Peace and kindness, Fred |
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JoeT, Well said, Well done. Fred |
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Originally Posted by arcura
Since the words can be interchangeable I don't see any logic in your argument. |
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Thus the issue, many churches ( even those not Roman Catholic) view this as talking to Peter, and saw Peter as the leader of the other Apostles, Those that do not want to accept Peter as the Leader of the Apostles and also connect this to Apostolic Succession of their ministers and/or Bishops. Have to reject this. While of course those same churches, also reject tradition, this was the accepted teaching and belief for over 1500 years until some of the newer churches in my opinion had to redefine the meanings of scripture to fit their personal teachings. Thus it is not really Catholic vs others, but Apostolic Succession churches, such as the Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Old Catholic, Episcopal. Even the Lutheran ( which no longer fall under Apostolic Succession, taught that Peter was the rock that the church was built on. So in fact it is only a very small group of Christians that don't accept this as proper scripture |
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