[EliseLynn]

I tried to keep it short - skip important details. I can answer any questions. Just trust it was a bad situation and a long custody battle that crossed state lines.

My boyfriend gained custody of his 3 children roughly 7 months ago after 5 years. We've been together 2, they separated after years of arguing over her drug use. The kids are 5 & 8 year old boys and 12 year old girl. The short of it is the eldest was the primary care-giver. Left at home alone a lot. Had a series of men whom they all had to call father. Verbal abuse, neglect, that sort of thing. This past year they were separated and living with different family. The eldest was forced to wear the same outfit to school every day by her grandpa! We had been trying to prove for a year to the authorities the separation she still drew from food stamps, child support and lived in HUD housing.

Since then we have shown them a lot of things they had never done. The grand canyon, roswell, climbing mountains, plays, festivals. They literally never did anything besides sleep and school. Even the movies was a first. You would think Hot Cocoa and all curled in a blanket was like Christmas. You get the idea. The boys have blossomed in the new environment. They have caught up really quick in school, the 5 y/o didn't know his colors, shapes or letters! I am very fastidious about praising the positives, and not rewarding bad behavior. We did have to buy a lot at once, beds, clothes, and some toys for them. I don't believe they are spoiled by normal standards, but they did get a lot at once in the beginning.

The problem we are having is the eldest. From the beginning, we can not give simple instruction or praise to the boys without her chiming in with "he didnt do it right" or "you go do this now" or the one I hate most "he can't he dosn't know how". I tell you she is MURDER on these boys self esteem, like a dog to raw meat. When she enters the room they don't talk and even stiffen up. She is equally as mouthy to us.

I time-out every time she mouths, and she now calls me ma'am. But she is so awful there is no room to praise, everything has a negative comment. She is on time out more than she is off it. She cries every time saying everyone hates her and we pick on her, and the boys never get in trouble. My boyfriend has gotten to a "cut the losses" idea, says he was too late, and wants to save the boys. The situation has well spiraled.

We sat down and had a good long talk WITH her, she broke down shared her feelings, we thought we got through. The end was that she would go back to her mother if she does not correct herself within a month. It has been a week and a half and its right back at it. There was another talk yesterday she was good, then we all went to applebees for a treat, where she didn't skip a beat. She had to have the adult menu (she did not get), wouldn't stay out of others plates, the boys ate wrong, the youngest chose baby food. And of course, we all hate her when she is told to sit on her hands.

This morning she woke us up by throwing a pile of jeans on us from the dryer crying that the ones she wanted to wear are still in the washer and she can't go to school because she has nothing to wear. He is at his end. He got up, got the scissors and cut those jeans to shreds, then made her stay home. He called in work and today she is cleaning the entire house army as we speak. He says he is getting a plane ticket for her on Friday.

Consistent punishment doesn't work, she has no toys left to take away, ultimatums fail, and the 'sitting calmly and talking it out' as everyone suggests doesn't solve much, he even spanks her!

What else is there?

[justcurious55]

Um, hello. Did you pay attention to all that stuff you told us in the beginning? This kid has been through hell. She needs counseling. You can't put a 12 year old in time out and take away toys and expect her to change just like that. You said she was the main caregiver for her little brothers. That's a lot, she still a kid herself! But that doesn't mean you can go back to treating her like a little kid now. She needs to be in individual counseling and probably family counseling as well. Giving up on her and sending her back to her mother now is the worst thing you two can possibly do. Shame on him for giving up on his daughter. And what does she learn by him shredding her jeans? That is just downright mean. She's expected to learn to be nicely with that as an example? After all she's learned is whatever examples her drug using mother set for so much of her life? And a grandfather who forced her to wear the same outfit everyday?
And making her sit on her hands? What is that? Seriously? Is she three years old? And trust me, when my abusive father made me clean the house military style, it didn't make things any better. I only hated him more. And became more hateful over all. And spanking a 12 year old girl, entirely inappropriate. What you need to do is bring in a professional, she is entirely beyond both of you. She's clearly been through too much.

[justcurious55]

By the way, I have a pretty good idea of how this girl feels. My parents went through an awful divorce. I'd already been the one taking care of my siblings when they were married because my dad worked full time and my mom would just literally disappear for hours on end and not answer her cell. My dad was abusive much of the time but would at least sometime bring in people to help watch my siblings so I could take a break (on good days when he wasn't being abusive). After they got divorced my mom turned to alcohol and prescription drugs, blamed me for the divorce and alternated between simply disappearing and being passed out. My aunt and uncle finally petitioned the court and were granted guardianship of one of my brothers and me. I was in counseling for something like 3 or 4 years. And it was tough adjusting. But my aunt and uncle were determined not to give up on me. And that makes all the difference. She is not going to be able to recover over night. Probably not even in a few months. She's got a tough road ahead of her. You and your boyfriend need to decide whether you're going to be there for her now, even though for whatever reasons he wasn't before. Or if he's going to give up on her.

[Gemini54]

I think that you need to back off and give the poor girl a break.

I know it's hard, because she's got such a bad mouth etc, but why continue punishing her if it doesn't work? Have you thought that punishment, particularly the physical punishment you're meting out, is just making it all worse?

The only way she knows how to get your attention is by behaving badly. She wants the care and affection that you're showing her brothers, but she doesn't know how to get it. Don't you understand? She doesn't know any other way to behave.

And, your BF. Is he a child as well? Cutting up her jeans - now that's setting a really good example! And, spanking for a 12 year old girl is an absolute no no. It's simply not on and reflects your bad parenting techniques!

I'd suggest you all need to go to counselling immediately and your BF needs to go to parenting classes with you. You spent a bunch of money on presents and clothes, now spend some on making yourselves decent parents and treating a poor abused 12 year old with some love and compassion. It won't get better overnight, but you all need to work at it and learn how to behave differently.

[EliseLynn]

I really don't appreciate the assumption that we are bad people.

Firstly, I and her father sympathize with her 100% - we are both one of the MILLIONS of bad child hood stories wandering around, one of the MILLIONS of bad childhood stories who still made a success and did it without counseling. Clearly you'r not over your problems or you wouldn't need to discuss it in such great depth to a stranger. Your not very equipped to give advice if your so tempted to put your childhood trama's on this girl who GOT OUT of a bad situation. If so, you wouldn't so ignore the 2 younger children escaped from the same situation and are still being mentally abused.

We did not shower gifts on them. We bought the necessities to function because they came with none. My boyfriend is not a child, he is well past fed up. There is a difference between disrespectful and crossing the line. If anything I think the problem is we "Overlook" and "Let Go" some of the bad behavior in attempt to continue enjoying a good time. And while I don't condone spanking, The girl did deserve a good pat on the butt the few times she got them, for the physical harm and marks she left on her brothers. Mind you - spank on the butt, not beating her with a belt. And what part of hot cocoa in blankets, and family trips to the grand canyon translates to not giving the girl love? Really. I thought if I came here I wouldn't get all the brain-dead responses like I did at Yahoo Questions.

Yes I made her sit on her hands. Unless you know of where Applebee's keeps their time out she will continue to sit on her hands or keep her hands out of other plates and nasty comments to herself.

Counseling is the only brilliant suggestion. I thought a warm loving environment would be enough. But for the rest, I regret even asking, I can't believe how judgmental, and how far you twisted my question around. By the way, we talked to her more last night and got to the bottom of it.

She thought coming out here it would be just her and her dad. When her parents were still together the boys were too young or not born yet, and they bonded very closely. Basically she thought she would be the only child again, and is going through the "I have a sibling now" struggle all over again. We deduced that all the picking at the boys, is both anger that they exist and get daddys attention. The framing and making them cry when we are not in the room is to get them in trouble so he wouldn't like them and love her. After we talked we decided he will spend more one on one time with each of them, instead of so much family activity. He will also make sure he talks with her about her past to get that stuff out. ANd make it known to her in an understandable way that her bad childhood doesn't need to translate into a lifetime of victim mentality. And that she can still have a normal life filled with happiness.

Thanks again for your assumptions. See you - oh I'm not coming back.

[J_9]

Wow, you are really defensive.

Going to the grand canyon does not represent love.. it represents a family trip.

This poor girl has been in a terrible situation for 12 years. You can't expect her to change in a matter of months. She has had to be the parent and she doesn't know any other way.

I can see that you guys are really trying here to give the children a childhood that they have never had, and I commend you for that. Not many people care enough. But you have to remember that this child has been abused and/or neglected for most of her life. She really does need counseling.

Why don't you read your original question as if you did not write it. What kind of advice would YOU give to that parent?

[justcurious55]

I hadn't been assuming that you were bad people. Based on the poor parenting examples you gave, it is reasonable to conclude that you are just simply not equipped to handle such a traumatized child.

and no, her causing physical harm does not in any way justify her receiving physical harm as punishment back. You think that hitting her will teach her not to hit her brothers? Do you also think 2+2=10? Children learn a lot by example. What example does hitting her set?

well isn't that just great that he's fed up. He's her parent. He doesn't get to get fed up, say "i tried, oh well" and still get a good parent award.

guess what she's going to remember of her time spent with you at the rate you're going. Its not going to be hot cocoa and going to the grand canyon. It's going to be her being spanked and made to sit on her hands (you think she's going to forget public humiliation? Think again.), and her father throwing a tantrum in response to her tantrum and shredding her favorite jeans.

at first, I'd thought you really were good people that were in over your heads and needed professional help to guide your good intentions. But your stubborn, defensive response makes me wonder. That's great you were able to overcome your bad childhood without counseling. But I have no idea why that makes you think she can.

and yeah, I totally admit I still struggle with my childhood some days. But I talk openly about it because I don't want other people, other children to have to go through the same things I went through. And I have no trouble telling a perfect stranger every detail if there's some chance that it might help a child out there struggling. Part of creating change is creating awareness. I'll tell the whole world if it helps a child or two.

for this little girl's sake, I hope you do come back.

[Jake2008]

I am surprised the court did not order therapy for the parents, in order to educate themselves in how to cope with such a troubled child, as a condition of custody.

You can't throw a kid into 'normal', when their normal was no-frills survival. Those instincts and traits that kept them alive and functioning, are not understood when the parents now think she has some sort of choice in not allowing her past to affect a happy future. She should be grateful!! Good grief.

These parents are so full of themselves and their abilities and judgments, yet lack even the slightest understanding of how severe abuse affects a child, particularly during the formative years. They have replaced the abuse she came with, with more abuse. It is abusive to humiliate, shred clothing, 'correct', and discipline, without understanding and knowledge of where this kid is coming from.

Totally and completely innapropriate.

IF she comes back, and can get off her high horse, and IF the child is a priority, she will run, not walk, not think about, but RUN to the nearest family therapist that deals with families and disturbed children who have an extreme background in abuse.

Ultimatum to go back to her mother... threatening to kick her out... unbelievable, totally innapropriate, ignorant parents.

[Gemini54]

I still think cutting up jeans, spanking and making a kid sit on their hands is bad parenting. I did not say that were bad people - none of us did.

That's part of the problem with the poster. She can't differentiate between bad behavior and a bad child.

The poor kid knew no other way to behave and all the punishments were reinforcing and repeating the damage already done.

All those dreadful punishments - and finally they were going to send the poor girl back to a completely dysfunctional mother!

No wonder she had a foul mouth.

I'm speechless.

[Jake2008]

Had to spread the rep Gemini, but I am speechless too... I feel so sorry for that kid.

[justcurious55]

Something about sitting on the hands just seems so, I don't know, medieval? 18th century? I don't even know. Like something awful that was thought up before anyone knew about child psychology or prohibiting cruel and unusual punishments. Really, what can be gained from that? Now she's not going to remember nice family dinners. She's going to remember being forced to sit on her hands.

And, another story I don't mind sharing from my childhood... my parents took me to Hawaii when I was little. Hawaii! What an awesome memory that should be. Guess what part I remember most clearly. The part where my dad got mad at me while we were playing miniature golf, spanked me half a dozen times, then threw me, yes, literally threw me, into a puddle and made me site there as punishment while all the other families walked by.

All of the cruel punishments are only further traumatizing this poor little girl.

[J_9]

While we all think that this is harsh punishment for a girl who has had a hard time already. Let us not forget that these people are trying to do what they think is right, no matter how wrong it may be.

I feel the same as all of you do, but I see that this woman and her husband are honestly trying, but don't fathom the depth of the little girl's psyche.

They see the boys who are behaving like angels and are expecting the girl to just appreciate what she has been given.

I see them trying, or at least trying to try.

Yes, what they did may have been harsh, extremely harsh, but this woman came to us looking for help and all we did was bash her rather than pointing her in a better direction.

Yes, she was defensive, but we came at her with our guns drawn so to speak.

We are trying to protect this girl, I know, but this woman really could use some help. Isn't that what we are here for after all?

[justcurious55]

Had to spread the rep again j_9, but thanks for the reminder.

Elise, this little girl needs help. More than you can give her. And it's not because you're a bad person or a bad parent. You can give her all of the love in the world, but she's been through too much for that alone to help her. Try to put yourself in her shoes. Try to imagine what it is like to try going from a lifetime of abuse to suddenly having loving parents who care. Even though it's for the best, her world has been turned upside down. That can be overwhelming for anyone, but especially an abused 12 year old whose hormones are just starting to go all over the place.

Being the oldest is an especially hard role. She went from being responsible for her little brothers (and I wonder if she also had to be the one protecting them in the past), to suddenly being allowed to be a kid again herself. Can you imagine that? Going from having to be completely responsible to suddenly, having very few responsibilities. What would you do with yourself if you were in her shoes? She probably doesn't even know what to do.

[jmjoseph]

You have to realize that when you put a question on this site, you get what you get. You have to take the "bad" (reality), with the "good" ( what you WANT to hear).

Only you and your boyfriend know what's really going on in your house.

I recommend you getting these books: " Have A New Kid By Friday", and " "How To Bring Up Kids Without Tearing Them Down" by Dr. Kevin Leman.

I'm pretty sure that you came back to read the comments, so please help this child get better. She basically was their MOTHER for so long that she doesn't know how to NOT discipline the boys.

What you do now could very well shape her for the future. Don't give up on her now, and don't send her back to her mother. That will be an admission of defeat.

And by the way, what the hell does cutting up a child's clothes prove ?

I agree with the counseling, for all of you. Good luck.

[JudyKayTee]

Thanks again for your assumptions. See you - oh I'm not coming back.

I see the problem to be YOUR attitude, not the child's.

The other problem I see is that you are in a live-in situation with your boyfriend. He isn't your husband. You are not the children's stepmother. I would not allow an outsider, which you are, to discipline my children, particularly harshly.

There was a similar thread a week or so ago - what do stepparents do? My late husband and I had a clear understanding concerning his children. I was their stepmother but they were his children. He consulted with me but I did not simply assume I was going to raise them.

The punishment you use is excessive and Child Welfare should step in.

I see you are gone forever - or moved to other threads, either/or.

[J_9]

See you - oh I'm not coming back.

And she DID come back. She's been answering questions all day.

[Jake2008]

Was there another question posted, or has the thread been moved?

[J_9]

Was there another question posted, or has the thread been moved?

This was the only question asked Jake. The OP is now answering questions... rather well it seems too.

[MsMewiththat]

I see that you are online right now and I want to get this to you... it may have been said and I will continue reading but you can't threaten her with sending her back to her mothers. Love is not conditional and it just very well may be that she wants to go back to her moms. I'll add more later, but I have to read the whole posting.

[J_9]

JudyKayTee agrees: First, the father is not married to OP; second, I see jealousy toward the child on the part of the OP. And children are hard work, particularly when they aren't yours.

Thanks for the public slap in the face Judy. You should have just given me a reddie since that's actually what you really wanted to do.

Sorry, I missed the part about the OP not being married. We all goof once in a while, or are you perfect all the time?

You may see jealousy on the part of the OP, but that is strictly your opinion. While I don't agree with what has been done here, we don't need to be so harsh as to judge a person without knowing all of the circumstances. We aren't there, we can only read what she wrote.

You are telling me children are hard work? Really? No way! You have to be kidding me! I guess I missed out on all that hard work raising 4 of my own. Not to mention that I'm STILL raising two as the other two are out of the house and married. Guess I missed out on all of the heartache and worry while my second born was in Iraq. Guess I missed all the hard work while I was raising the youngest two while in nursing school full time and working full time. Guess they just raised themselves during this period. Yup, I missed out on my youngest going from 18 months (when I started school) to 6 years old (when I graduated), I didn't do any of the work then.

No, I haven't raised other people's children, but I have worked my arse off to raise the ones I have with very little help from their father. Days went by without sleep or food in my stomach.

Judy, I consider you a friend, but this was really low. Rarely do I argue with other members of the site, but this one I couldn't let go. Especially after you ignored my PM about this.

Oh, and while we are on it... I am on hour number 27 without sleep so far. Had to take care of a sick 7 year old yesterday AND work an exhausting 12 hour shift last night. My 16 year old has cheer practice and my husband is at work. So, guess who is home watching the 7 year old. You guessed it... ME, and I have another 12 hour shift tonight as well as Sunday and Monday nights. So, Judy, don't tell me children aren't hard work. I have my work cut out for me.

Maybe you need to take a step back and see that sometimes we have to give the benefit of the doubt when people are asking for our help here. If we continue to berate people we wouldn't have a premium Q&A site, now would we?

*Clunk off my soapbox*