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Starman · Nov 6, 2006, 12:17 PM

I repeatedly come across the argument that we shouldn't judge.
If we follow that strict reasoning, wouldn't that make being a judge in a court of law a sin
For a Christian? After all, a judge's job is to judge-isn't it?

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5)

http://www.obeygod.com/judgenot.html

Fr_Chuck · Nov 6, 2006, 01:41 PM

We have to look and take the entire bible as one context, not merely look at one verse,

We see in the Old Testement God setting up judges over us.
And we also see that as a Chrsitian if someone does wrong against us, we are to go to them, go to them with witnesses and in the end if they don't correct the wrong we are to take them in front of the entire church. Who would review the complaint and take action.

The church for the Christian was suppose to be taking care of the issue.
So in fact we do judge facts, we do call our brothers and sisters into correction for their actions.

What we can not do is try to decide their motives or salvation of others, Also Christ was always direct that he addressed a heavenly kingdom, not a earthly one.

And the bible also tells us that God ordains and sets the rulers over us, which judges would be part of that.

It is like with Paul and the area for women to be quiet, but yet we know as a fact that there were women leaders in the early church. One has to temper any one verse with all the other verses and get a idea of the overall goal.

andrewcocke · Nov 6, 2006, 06:32 PM

Simply put, we all jugde. There isn't a person in the board, or on this earth who hasn't judged someone a time or two.

This very thread is judging judges who judge. Im not trying to sound cute, its just a fact. You can't avoid sin. Thank God for Jesus.

Starman · Nov 7, 2006, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by andrewcocke

Simply put, we all jugde. There isnt a person in the board, or on this earth who hasnt judged someone a time or two.

This very thread is judging judges who judge. Im not trying to sound cute, its just a fact. You can't avoid sin. Thank God for Jesus.

I agree with everything you said except the part that I am judging the judges and sinning by asking this rhetorical question for the sake of discussion. Please notice that I said nothing pro or con about the judges. The scripture I posted is one that others use to support the idea that one should never opine about another person's conduct. That of course isn't a biblical concept and is a misinterpretation of what the scripture means.

Hope that clears up the misunderstanding.

: )

NeedKarma · Nov 7, 2006, 11:11 AM

Hmm.. what's the alternative? How do we deal with the miscreants of society?

andrewcocke · Nov 7, 2006, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Starman

I agree with everything you said except the part that I am judging the judges and sinning by asking this rhetorical question for the sake of discussion. Please notice that I said nothing pro or con about the judges. The scripture I posted is one that others use to support the idea that one should never opine about another person's conduct. That of course isn't a biblical concept and is a misinterpretation of what the scripture means.

Hope that clears up the misunderstanding.

: )

Touché

Moonbay · Nov 7, 2006, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Starman

I repeatedly come across the argument that we shouldn't judge.
If we follow that strict reasoning, wouldn't that make being a judge in a court of law a sin
for a Christian? After all, a judge's job is to judge-isn't it?

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5)

http://www.obeygod.com/judgenot.html

In the Bible God appointed judges, when the Hebrews were lost in the desert, to keep orderly law. If it has something to do with upholding justice and righteousness then it's okay. Otherwise there would be no courthouse or judges today. What the Bible means is that you are not to judge people like for instance, "She is such a tramp! Did you see how he or she was flirting in front of their dates." Like that for instance. I hope this makes sense to you. Because I honestly tried to explain at my best.

JoeCanada76 · Nov 8, 2006, 12:06 AM

The answer is NO. Being a judge is about laws that are here in the land. Being a judge here on earth is no sin. We are to obey the laws of the land. Judges are appointed here on earth. Judges are given that right to judge to uphold justice. God has appointed everyone of these people. Kings, judges, leaders.

Joe

Starman · Nov 8, 2006, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Moonbay

In the Bible God appointed judges, when the Hebrews were lost in the desert, to keep orderly law. If it has something to do with upholding justice and righteousness then it's okay. Otherwise there would be no courthouse or judges today. What the Bible means is that you are not to judge people like for instance, "She is such a tramp! Did you see how he or she was flirting in front of their dates." Like that for instance. I hope this makes sense to you. Because I honestly tried to explain at my best.

I understand. What you are saying is that we shouldn't misjudge people.

DrJ · Nov 8, 2006, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Hmm.. what's the alternative? How do we deal with the miscreants of society?

Are you not judging these people you speak of by calling them "miscreants"? Who is to say WHO is the miscreant and who is not?

Originally Posted by Moonbay

If it has something to do with upholding justice and righteousness then it's okay. Otherwise there would be no courthouse or judges today.

Is that so? And who is the judge of what is justice and what is righteous? When there was a law against prayer and those who prayed were judged and sentanced to death, were the judges justified?

Starman · Nov 9, 2006, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by DrJizzle

Are you not judging these people you speak of by calling them "miscreants"? Who is to say WHO is the miscreant and who is not?

Is that so? And who is the judge of what is justice and what is righteous? When there was a law against prayer and those who prayed were judged and sentanced to death, were the judges justified?

The Nuremberg trials. Do you feel that those judges were in no position to evaluate who were guilty and who weren't guilty of wrong conduct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

NeedKarma · Nov 10, 2006, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by DrJizzle

Are you not judging these people you speak of by calling them "miscreants"? Who is to say WHO is the miscreant and who is not?

I have no problems calling miscreants those who have broken the laws established by our peers (government that we elected, etc). Maybe that's not the right term or the term you like but I'm not hung up on the exacts "judge not" words of the bible. People who have 'hurt' others should be punished for it.

DrJ · Nov 13, 2006, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Starman

The Nuremberg trials. Do you feel that those judges were in no position to evaluate who were guilty and who weren't guilty of wrong conduct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

Whether it be leading the Nazis or jaywalking... a crime is a crime.. a sin is a sin.. a judge is a judge.

What makes that judge have any more right to judge than the one who resides over a jaywalking case?

DrJ · Nov 13, 2006, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I have no problems calling miscreants those who have broken the laws established by our peers (government that we elected, etc). Maybe that's not the right term or the term you like but I'm not hung up on the exacts "judge not" words of the bible. People who have 'hurt' others should be punished for it.

Have you ever hurt someone? Have you ever broken a law established by our peers or our government?

Were you punished for it? Were you punished for every time you hurt someone or broke a law?

DrJ · Nov 14, 2006, 10:50 AM

Oops

(someone can delete this if they have the power)

NeedKarma · Nov 14, 2006, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by DrJizzle

Have you ever hurt someone? Have you ever broken a law established by our peers or our governement?
Were you punished for it? Were you punished for everytime you hurt someone or broke a law?

Yes; I think (I've never been in court as an accused); not sure which "it" you are referring to but I have been punished for bad deeds; of course not no one is.

Ok so where were you going with this?

valinors_sorrow · Nov 14, 2006, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Starman

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.(Matthew 7:1-5)

I think that is more the point. I am prepared to be judged by others in the manner I judge them. If you read the whole context of the quote, I think the implied "sin" is in creating a double standard. It is a reminder that we will all be measured by the same yardstick and I am glad of that too. And it is an invitation to stick to cleaning your own backyard too - not a bad idea. Or be sure you don't live in a glass house when you throw that stone LOL. I believe in fairness and that is as fair as it comes.

I actually live my life so that its both possible and comfortable to maintain that both-directions judgement balance. It took me a long painful path to get there so I understand those who have not yet arrived too, which is why I make efforts to couch my judgements in the most compassionate of terms as possible. I remember what it was like being off my moral compass and it was bad. And on any given day, I could be making a mistake too so I see others like that and treat them as kindly as I hope to be. Judgement does not harm others, actions do. I contend that actions that damage others are wrong and so therefore is the judgement that spawned it.

Judgement is an unavoidable and necessary part of living. I support the kind of judgement that is used as discernment to add to awareness or to protect life by containing harm. I abhor judgement that attempts to hide bigotry, is used to subjegate others or doesn't measure up to reality on a world stage. Unfortunately when it comes to the US criminal justice system, we have yet to learn how to contain harm-makers without harming them back and to that I say shame on us. We really haven't risen much past the eye for an eye arrangement in the last couple of milleniums. And you know what that gets us, lots of blind people. Not to be confused with blind justice - which is a metaphor LOL oddly enough for the quote that started this whole discussion-- Fair treatment!

Besides, the judging you speak of Starman is to the law of the land, not to some moral code of any religion and in this country those two are rightfully separated. It goes almost without saying though, that correct judgement still prevails (hopefully) and incorrect judgement still diminished (hopefully) since that system was also devised with substantial checks and balances to prevent injustice thereby proving that judgement can be both good and bad, accurate and inaccurate.

DrJ · Nov 15, 2006, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Yes; I think (I've never been in court as an accused); not sure which "it" you are referring to but I have been punished for bad deeds; of course not no one is.

Ok so where were you going with this?

Well, I don't really know where I am going with this lol But to continue rambling aimlessly...

Many people will say (and to quote a brilliant man), "Only God can judge me."

However, at the same time, they will turn around and say, "Well, that person did this and that so he deserves to be judged."

But who is to say what is right and what is wrong? What is judgable and what is not? What makes someone a miscreant worthy of judgment?

Some may say it's the law... well, there is no law against ingorance and yet, we judge ignorant people almost every day.

Some may say it's the 10 commandments... well, there is no commandment against a 40-year-old man having sex with a 10-year-old girl... but show me one person who thinks that person shouldn't be judged.

NeedKarma · Nov 15, 2006, 11:52 AM

I agree with you Jizzle. Many of the laws set forth by our courts are for protection: of minors, of people entering a contract, etc. Not all eventuallities are covered in the bible.

DrJ · Nov 15, 2006, 12:35 PM

And this is kind of interesting, what Starman and Val are talking about:

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.(Matthew 7:1-5)

So if a murderer is not judgmental of murderous acts/tendancies of others, will he not be judged for his own murderous acts/tendancies?

And if you say, well this doesn't apply for murder... well, then we are back to wo is the judge of what is "too bad" to not be applicable my the words of Matthew?